|
Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 11:27:07 GMT -5
Well, the alignment does match the general alignment of the area, so maybe a devil isn't a shoe-in. If you wanted to use one of the detailed gods, Incabulos would be the closest fit, but kind of a stretch. I'd make up somebody new. I based my conclusion of Nerull on: Spidasa's level (15th) so it has to be a greater god and popping out a "NE GG" out of nowhere might be too much of a stretch. The regional alignment map being NE in Medegi and North Province, CN in Rauxes (madness of Ivid) and LE in South Province (the IL warfront being military minded). Nerull's public worship in wicked lands over Incabulos (& Tharizdun's ) secretive worship. Nerull is commonly worshipped even though the god is of Flan origin. Nerull's service pieces are of copper and malachite. Making the malachite throne keyed in a little. The only naysay to all this is that Oerideans are racist so they'd most likely prefer an Oeridean NE Greater God. So who did they worship before the great migration? Perhaps it was just the lesser evils and when GK went bad after the migration they adopted Nerull explaining his commonality?
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Dec 10, 2007 11:38:38 GMT -5
One fact I believe is often overlooked is that the Guide states that "only deities of the central Flanaess are detailed", so there is a lot of room for expansion. There's not a single evil greater Oeridian god detailed, so there has to be something missing.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Dec 10, 2007 12:34:50 GMT -5
Here's an excerpt from Rob's 2001-2002 e-mail to me on the subject of FATE OF ISTUS's "new state religion":
This reply compounded things into the result that nothing much was finalized for publication and I think this was the start of all this talk for talk of development.
What is needed is rounded out pantheons for all WOG's culture's. That task can easily be visualized by lining them up and comparing and contrasting them with the real world classical gods.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Dec 10, 2007 12:42:04 GMT -5
Complete cultural pantheons would be cool, as well as 'recent' additions and misc. catagories.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Dec 11, 2007 9:24:02 GMT -5
Its actually a bigger task than I originally imagined, I started on the Oeridian GGs last night and I came up with a good premise, toyed around with new names and general areas of control that all makes sense and "fits" but I definitely have to expand the originality of them more for viewing otherwise its just a bunch of derivative prattle unworthy of the standard.
GT mentioned the Suel not being up to snuff. I kind of get that. Is it that they seemed too generic? I think it might just be the illustrations didn't look like blonde "toeheads" (which they all should have) which leads one to scrutinize them more. They don't deliver any style of the Suel Empire at all and its just a random pile of fantasy illustration. The pics particularly say nothing of a corrupt magical empire and only appear as endearingly sympathetic or rudely crude monsters. Sure you can put all the blame on Lakofka for providing the quite "unSuel" (plus lame and mundane) descriptions for the artists but the artists didn't even try to work together on it at all it seems. So Len seemed just glad to have people drawing stuff it seems. Not that the artists failed because the monstrous ones look good but I think this should have been a job for Jim Holloway (or even Jeff Easley. SHUDDER!) as he had that "bland countenanced" type down pat from looking at his work elsewhere. Is there something else? As an aside, I for one would have liked the good Suel to be a pinch of inhuman and have stylized clothing and weird headresses. That would have given a taste of decadence which I don't see and feel should have been there.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Dec 11, 2007 9:59:01 GMT -5
This was what inspired my 'Building a Cosmology' thread. I think there should be a core of pre-civilization gods, the ones that created things. Over time, other beings were drawn to the world, or ascended to the ranks of the divine, and from this brew the different pantheons are built. Some may be worshiped in numerous pantheons, maybe under different names and with different appearances. Using Manwë from the Valar as an example, he's probably worshipped in many different human cultures, and they all would have different names for him, and artistic renditions of him probably vary from culture to culture based on what local perception would be.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Dec 11, 2007 10:03:19 GMT -5
The Suel pantheon is a tough one, since the current Suel groups don't resemble the old Suel empire at all. The barbarians would have no reason to venerate most of the gods of a corrupt, magical civilization. Their pantheon is likely to have picked up more primitive Flan gods, or other types more fitting their current situation.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Dec 11, 2007 11:15:28 GMT -5
In the ancient past, the proto-Suel would have worshipped the original Valar-type gods that all ancient peoples worshipped, and would not have had much of an identity of their own. At some point in their history the attention of some god from another world would have been drawn to the Suel, or one of their own ascended to the ranks of the gods. From what we know of the Suel, Wee Jas makes a good candidate. She may have been an early Suel wizard that reached high levels and using magic came out on the winning side of some ancient struggle. Conquering and uniting several early Suel tribes, or leading the ancient nomadic Suel people into what would become the heart of the ancient empire and conquering or driving out whatever beings dwelled there at the time. Whatever the case may be, she became the ‘mother’ of the Suel people and their identity started to be shaped by her personality, either willingly due to admiration of what she had accomplished, or she forced it upon them because she was in chare and had the power to due so. This process would be continued through the ages. Old gods would be forgotten and new gods would rise to replace them as the personality and needs of the people changed,. Eventually we get to the pantheon the Suel were worshipping 1,000 years ago, the wars, the cataclysms, the migrations. There’s a good chance the migrating Suel would turn their backs on the things that brought down their doom. Magic, which was responsible for the cataclysms, was probably looked upon with contempt by many of the survivors. Gods whose sphere dealt in the things associated with civilization were forgotten by the Suel now living a migratory, more primitive existence. As the bands settled, new pantheons would rise based on the current existence. The barbarians would probably put together a pantheon the strongly resembled the Norse gods. Those that migrated into the Amedio will now probably have a pantheon that resembles the Maya.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Dec 11, 2007 11:48:37 GMT -5
Well, Tharizdun is definitely old "Woe" (pure evil) and the novels had some quick throw ins with little description and vagueness thats hard to tell who they are. "Proctor Chronos" seems to be Istus' and Lendor's dad as she's the LADY of Fate and he's the PRINCE of Time hinting that Proctor Chronos is the primordial "KING" of time with the "Proctor" title implying that he's only cursorily watching them do his old work. Entropy is obviously some kind of primordial chaos. So with Tharizdun thats two ultimate "alignment" gods. You can assume there are three others for weal, balance and order. But what else? Pure Cheddar? The essence of ultimate Wisconsin? Sorry, I digress!
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 11, 2007 22:10:38 GMT -5
Well, Istus was actually a Bakluni god, and when I queried Gary on this he said he had only developed four or five Bakluni deities back in the day. So, given the Arabic-similar culture of the Bakluni, I was prompted to do this:
HALIMAB (Creation, Law) Greater Deity ARMOR: -10 MOVE: 15" HIT POINTS: 400 NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 2 DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10 - 100 SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below MAGIC RESISTANCE: 120% SIZE: L (12') ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral or good SYMBOL: Scimitar over three stars PLANE: Arcadia CLERIC/DRUID: 25th lvl cleric FIGHTER: 12th lvl fighter MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 20th lvl in each THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: Nil PSIONIC ABILITY: I Attack/Defense Modes: S: 24 I: 25 W: 25 D: 22 C: 25 CH: 24
This is the supreme deity of the Bakluni Pantheon, the father of Istus, Dorgha Torgu and Xerkway. He is the giver of Bakluni law, and all are expected to abide by his tenets. Even the more true neutral-aligned of that folk pay some homage to this deity. It was Halimab who stripped Dorgha Torgu of his powers and rendered him a quasi-deity after that god caused the Rain of Invisible Fire to strike the Suel nation, an act of divine intervention that was unsanctioned by the Bakluni gods lest the Suel deities retaliate! If forced into combat, Halimhab wields a +5 staff which he may transform into a +5 scimitar at will. In either form, this weapon inflicts 10 - 100 points of positive energy damage. These attacks will obliterate any normal undead that he strikes. He may be hit only by weapons of +5 or better. Halimab appears as older, muscular man with dark skin. His eyes are jet-black and piercing, and his hair and beard are black with gray streaks. He generally wears a white dishdasha robe and a grey jubba coat.
XERKWAY (Sun, Weal, Health, Chivalry) Greater Deity ARMOR: -8 MOVE: 15" HIT POINTS: 315 NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 4 DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below MAGIC RESISTANCE: 95% SIZE: M (6 ½') ALIGNMENT: Lawful good WORSHIPPERS’ ALIGNMENT: Any good SYMBOL: Fiery scimitar PLANE: Seven Heavens CLERIC/DRUID: 20th lvl Cleric FIGHTER: 15th lvl paladin MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: Nil THIEF/ASSASSIN: Nil MONK/BARD: 10th lvl Bard PSIONIC ABILITY: II Attack/Defense Modes: S: 22 I: 20 W: 24 D: 21 C: 23 CH: 24
This Bakluni deity is favored among the clerics and knights of weal, and popular with the general populace. Although Xerkway and Pelor are of different pantheons, they are nonetheless reputed to be allies, and both had major roles in imprisoning Tharizdun. Seven times a day, this deity can emit a blast of pure sunlight with a high content of positive energy that has a range of 140 feet surrounding his personage. This inflicts 7 - 42 points of damage to Prime Material or Elemental beings and 8 - 80 points of damage to creatures of the Lower Planes. He may also cast up to seven heal spells at will each day. Xerkway wields a +5 scimitar that combines the powers of a holy avenger, sword of sharpness, and flamebrand (+10 damage vs. cold-using/dwelling creatures). He wears +4 scale armor that gleams with highlights of gold and silver, and bears a shield that features his symbol in red. His smagh headpiece is white.
These aren't really fully-developed, but you get the idea. Combine them with Istus, Geshtai (very important god in an arid region), Xan Yae, and Zuoken (and I use Tharizdun--though virtually forgotten--and devils/demons for the evil side) and you have at least the beginnings of a workable pantheon to the west.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Dec 11, 2007 22:53:37 GMT -5
Those AD&D LG dervishes need to whack out on something. Seriously, after Gary's impotent but still stated "monk divorce" in OA's foreword, what was to become of Xan Yae? Thats another cut end of D&D with no closure. Was she to be eliminated?
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Dec 11, 2007 23:10:19 GMT -5
You know Holloway really should have been the man for the job of illustrating the Suel Pantheon like I said above. Check out his "Pholtus" with accompanying description: If Pholtus was Suel instead of Oeridian then this'd be an almost flawless way you would imagine a Suel god to appear.
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 3:57:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure that Gary could have eliminated the Monk, given its integral nature to the Scarlet Brotherhood and inclusion in the Slave Lords series. I just always thought of the Oerik monks as being like the Bloodguard in the Thomas Covenant series, and the Kara Tur monks as the more traditional Oriental variety.
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 12:06:56 GMT -5
Maybe, ultimately, what we might do is start our own "canon" sort of thing---the members of this board seem to be able to hammer out agreements. If worst came to worst, we could present Gary with our various scenarios and see what he likes best, and frankly: we'll all be running our own campaigns at home in the end at any rate! Gene and I have been working on various critters for some time, and I'm more "mainstream" and he's more "outside the box"; but nonetheless we appreciate each other's ideas-- the same could apply to an overall 1E AD&D forum that doesn't subscribe to later-edition revisionism... just a thought.
|
|
ghul
Enchanter
Posts: 272
|
Post by ghul on Dec 12, 2007 12:15:43 GMT -5
Maybe, ultimately, what we might do is start our own "canon" sort of thing---the members of this board seem to be able to hammer out agreements. If worst came to worst, we could present Gary with our various scenarios and see what he likes best, and frankly: we'll all be running our own campaigns at home in the end at any rate! Gene and I have been working on various critters for some time, and I'm more "mainstream" and he's more "outside the box"; but nonetheless we appreciate each other's ideas-- the same could apply to an overall 1E AD&D forum that doesn't subscribe to later-edition revisionism... just a thought. If only there were two of me, I would love to contribute, but unfortunately I can only serve as a cheerleader to such efforts. I look forward to seeing what you fellows produce, and will be happy to ride along and provide some random commentary. --Jeff T.
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 12:16:37 GMT -5
...of course, Scott and I shall have to come to an understanding on the age of Iuz... HAAAAARRRRRRRRR!!!!! ;D
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 12:18:24 GMT -5
Jeff, it's Scott's board, but if I may (looks at Scott with puppydog eyes...) your input is always welcome! ^__^
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 12:24:55 GMT -5
Whaddaya think Weigel?? [looks at Gene lurking on the side...]
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Dec 12, 2007 12:25:10 GMT -5
...of course, Scott and I shall have to come to an understanding on the age of Iuz... HAAAAARRRRRRRRR!!!!! ;D That's easy, almost as old as you. HAAAAARRRRRRRRR!!!!!! back at ya.
|
|
GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
|
Post by GT on Dec 12, 2007 12:26:08 GMT -5
OOOUUUCCCHHHH!!!! My liver... ^__^
|
|