Citadel of Eight, Circle of Eight

[GRWelsh]

I always thought the Citadel of Eight was Mordenkainen's fortress and named after the fact his own party (he and his henchmen) numbered eight. I know Mordenkainen's stronghold and forces were, at least later, referred to as the Obsidian Citadel:

"The elvenfolk of Highfolk and their nominal subjects within the edges of Vesve Forest made alliance with Mordenkainen and the force called the Obsidian Citadel" (ARTIFACT OF EVIL, p. 230).

The Magical Circle of Eight was a later development from Isle of the Ape and the Gord novels. I'm not sure who all was in the magical Circle of Eight, but at the time of Isle of the Ape, Tenser had just recently been admitted into its ranks.

"In due course I sought the Circle of Eight, and in time I was accepted in their ranks. Now I sit as one of the Eight Magi and am charged with overseeing the whole of the territory roundabout" (WG6: Isle of the Ape, p. 6).

Allton was an associate of Tenser, and also in the Co8 (as a full member or lesser member, I don't remember off-hand -- that was per the later Gord books). Bigby seems to have been the leader:

"...Mordenkainen stood with the archmage Bigby and the seven other mages and wizards who, with Bigby, formed the Magical Circle of Eight" (AoE, p. 321).

Did EGG ever confirm who else was in the Co8?

[Scott]

The only other names I know he mentioned were Oscar and Dierdre Longarm, but both were lesser members.

[GT]

Was Timmil in the group (from the Gord books? I don't recall...)

[GT]

Now, the original group weren't all mages... Scott has that list floating around somewhere. Safe to say Rary was NOT one of them... ^__^

[GT]

Whew!! After digging through literally thousands of reams of paper, I found my old print-out of the old 1998 WoG Fanclub Q&A; where-in Gary states, concerning the original group of Mordenkainen, Bigby, Riggby, Yrag, Felnorith, Sigby, Ziggby(called "Digby" here!), & Vin and Vram:
"...And in my campaign, those PC's are STILL the "Citadel of the Eight".

When a question is asked concerning Thrommel and his incarceration, Gary states: "How about this: The Scarlet Brotherhood captures Thrommel and sells him to the Temple. Could be, eh?"

I was really pissed at this group, though, as many of them (Roger Moore, "JoeBloch", and others) spoke condescendingly towards Gary at times, as if any of them are better experts on Greyhawk!! HARRRRRR!!!!

[Scott]

Wasn't it Moore that got Erac's Cousin and Grimslade mixed up in The House on Summoner Court adventure?

Personally, I think the matter with the kidnapping shouldn't be over complicated. Thrommel is kidnapped. The Temple did it.

[GT]

Awww, c'mon! I like Gary's idea of Iuz hiring the Scarlet Brotherhood. Plausible deniability and all that! On the other hand, I do not like Paul Stormberg's idea of Nyrond being behind it... WTF?

[Scott]

Too many bogey men in the cookie jar.

[GT]

I don't know-- the Temple would have been severely weakened after Emridy Meadows and thirsting for revenge; so who could they have hired out to carry out the kidnapping? The Greyhawk Guilds would probably have declined--too much risk and no real gain. However, the SB on the other hand...

[Scott]

i think Iuz should have more than a few capable individuals, and he is half of the Temple pie.

[GT]

Truly, but it was only 4 years between the Battle and the kidnapping, and Iuz was released only the year after the Battle. And the SB was first reported the year of the kidnapping! Coincidence? I wonder... Better go to Gary on this one...

[geneweigel]

I've got a 2002 e-mail where I went over the Co8 with Gary and prodded him to make a Co8 generic book and he basically told me there is no way. Besides that its pretty good light reading in regards to this thread and insightful toward what we're doing to some degree:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Weigel" <[e-mail]>
To: "Gary" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:45 PM
Subject: Almost the Circle of Eight


> Hey Gary,
>
> How's it going? I picked up that Codex of Erde with
> the intro to Gaxmoor that you did. Pretty good sir.
>
> I was thinking about things left unanswered in GH
> and since you're no longer touching on such things
> directly my thoughts went to the mystery of the
> Circle.
>
> Would it be possible for you in the future to do
> some information on the layout of the organization in
> a Greyhawk free format?
>
> The way I see it is that everyone is getting it
> wrong except me. You plainly suggested it was a
> neutral group (much more than the number eight by the
> way) of adventurers of various classes who have been
> controlling the balance of the Flanaess in the modules
> WG5 and WG6. The four characters Mordenkainen, Bigby,
> Riggby, and Yrag being four of the leaders. You later
> confirmed this in your novels especially Artifact of
> Evil saying there were high and low tiers to the
> organization. Isle of the Ape is what confused the
> later writers when it said that Tenser was one of the
> eight magi. They assumed that all the Circle were
> mages and produced the "lovely" group they have today.
> But the way I read it was that he was one of the lower
> ranks.
>
> Could you please confirm that I think I know what I'm
> talking about.
>
> That the circle is led by the original members
> Mordenkainen, Bigby, Riggby, Yrag, Felnorith, Vin &
> Vram, Ziggby, and Sigby Grigbyson.
>
> That the lower ranks include: Tenser, Melf, Deirdre,
> Alton, Oscar and countless unknown others of which
> include 5 other mages or less. Maybe the pregenerated
> character from the module Isle of the Ape Warnes
> Starcoat achieved his goal of joining.
>
> That they all operate out of the Obsidian Citadel
> somewhere in or near the Yatils. Which is inhabited by
> dwarves, gnomes, grugach, and wood elves. They also
> have jurisdictions like Tenser has an area near the
> Nyr Dyv.
>
> They are part of the Balance organization or at least
> an ally of it.
>
> If this is true then I can see you renaming the
> characters and having this organization fully detailed
> as a d20 game supplement because what they are calling
> the Circle of Eight in Living Greyhawk doesn't even
> touch this concept.
>
> You could steal it back right from under their noses
> and give all the fans something they could really use.
>
> It could be a reference supplement about secret
> organizations in fantasy roleplaying and you could
> include your renamed Circle of Eight.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Halfbaked?
>
> I'm still anxiously awaiting Canting Crew. It sounds
> tasty!
>
> Talk to you later,
>
> Gene
>


Ho Gene!

Dude, I appreciate your interest, but realistically there's not a hop
in
hell's chance I am ging to be able to do that sort of thing.

As of now I am working on about six creative projects, with inquiries
about
as amny more--all paying, which is good because I need to pay the rent
and
eat:) In addition I have fan and general gaming correspondence to
manage,
business matters, contracts, and some special projects that demand a
fair
amount of attention. In short, right now, I am at it every day, 10
hours a
day.

If I tried to do as you suggest, what Gene Weigle wishes, get involved
in
variuous other like things, I'd either get no creative work done or
else I'd
have to give up eating and sleeping!

Ciao,
Gary
<Who for some reason has been innundated with like requests this AM.
I'm
used to a couple or so a week, but six in one morning blows my mind!
Sorry
to be cranky ((<

BTW, I was later angry about the Erde book that I purchased because I felt all that I bought was the tiny Gygax bit for a huge price (I didn't like the world at all.)

[ghul]

Well, Erde is definitely Steve Chenault's baby, and although I work for the dude, I've never really read the book because I'm old and cranky and I only like Greyhawk. Some folks love the setting, though.

I agree with everything you said back in 2002, Gene. The Circle of 8 is neutral! Who said it wasn't? See, I don't have some of the same problems as you, because I stopped reading GH material in 1985 (with the exception of the Gord novels). So my mind is unpolluted by the entire era that followed Gygax's vision. I did download From the Ashes and gave it a perusal about 6 months ago. A few interesting tidbits here and there, but largely I look at it as GH fan fiction. I understand that may sound blasphemous in some GH fandom quarters, but that's how I feel.

I remember buying Iuz the Evil just because of the cover. I couldn't read through it without falling asleep, and for the life of me I could not find the adventure. But the map inside is cool, and I've been tempted to use it, filling it in with my own GH. Ahh, I'm getting tangential again -- sorry Scott!

[Scott]

The original (Gary's PCs) Citadel/Circle wasn't a secret organization. It was just the name of Mordenkainen and his early henchmen and companions' party. Their escutcheon was an 8 ball.
Everything else was a literary creation that never saw full development. Gary may have had ideas, but we'll probably never know what they were.
There was a circl of mages, but there were also going to be circles of other classes too.

[geneweigel]

Yes, Scott, I was trying to get him to fill in the blanks but he didn't bite.

That thing about the original characters versus the literary creation sounds very "Kuntzish" though.

As I see it, the circle of 8 are the guys from Mord's adventure and I can't see it any other way. The fact that you later informed me that these were his original characters made no difference to my original assertions that Co8 was a complex and active organization. ANd thats what should have been for us the "buyers of Greyhawk". A complex organization that ties into adventurers by numerous representatives setting problems out for them that actually works in gameplay and not this "hero worship/7 dwarves/exclusive club/useless story/poser mage" garbage or whatever you want to call it that it became.

Although those were Gary's characters that fact still doesn't mean anything to me because the intention for what he wanted was something that I originally embraced wholeheartedly (the Co8 is a group for any class) and then later rejected Sargent's inept and mistaken "mage party". So I see the Co8 starting at the original intention of MFA and IOTA. Just because most folks didn't absorb what I absorbed and went with the mage group out of confusion means nothing to me. In my mind Co8 is a lost Gygax concept and that is what I know to be true.

That concept as he intended it is eight areas and split with high and low so the fighters would have 16 members. This is what I had in mind back then on the neutral lines:

fighter
cavalier
druid
cleric
magic-user
illusionist
thief
monk

But looking back I'm not so sure about this. WHat of multi-classes?

[Scott]

The Co8 would have to be created mostly from scratch, since the details for the intended published group are so sparse.
Doesn't the wizard pre-gen from Isle of the Ape aspire to join? Does it say anything about the make up, as in group of wizards?

[geneweigel]

Mixed characters divided on class lines with high and low tiers is the gleaned premise.

Mixed adventurers going on missions for neutrality is the most superficial aspect.

The 4 from MFA are called principals. The IOTA pregens aren't members but they seem to be on all different wavelengths maybe they are tangential members?

3 seems to be the Gygax number for groups so I see "HIGH" (Morde, Yrag, Riggby, Bigby, 4 more), LOW (Tenser and 7 other mages, and 7 other class groups of 8) and these "call up" dudes (IOTA pre-gens). This is the original concept. However the details are elusive.

[geneweigel]

Tenser is called a "Fellow of the Circle of Eight" and it may be a different combination than what I'm saying. With the principals being counted as the 8 magi as well leaving 5 left.

[Scott]

I didn't think the IotA pre-gens were members. I thought in his background info, Warnes Starcoat is trying to get in, or something, but I could be remembering wrong.

[Scott]

Nah, I must have been confusing different memories.
The pre-gen backgrounds don't give any real incite. Just references to recieving summons from the council or circle of eight, and one reference to the Co8 being allies to some demi-humans.