DF Trolls

[Scott]

If any of the idiots that 'guest' post the negative C&C posts at DF read this, stop being such an asshole. Get over it already. C&C is what it is. DF is what it is. If it's not to your liking, stop hanging around and acting like such a pathetic loser. The site is not going to change. C&C is not going to change. EGG is not going to stop writing for C&C.

[geneweigel]

Until this instance, checking out the forums (Thats right! I said it: forumsssss [its called Englissssssh]. Sorry just saw someone use the term "fora" again. Blech!)regarding "that game" (and its producers) have been "negative nothing" except perhaps reviewing the Gygax stuff.

So it aint me!

My advice to whomever? If you want to chop off Elminster's "hat quills" then go to the source (Ed Greenwood and/or WOTC) and leave the cheap clones to bury themselves in futility.

[Scott]

The posts are all deleted. Basically just cheap shots at C&C.

[GT]

Wow! I missed the whole thing!

[Scott]

It's just really lame stuff that usually gets deleted right away.
The posters often claim to be posting as guests because they are posting from work, but you can see that they are using cheap IP address hiders designed for spammers and trolls, and they have no regular profiles.
Guest posting in the C&C forum had to be banned, so now it's in General Discussion, and in EGG's Q&A thread. Just endless variations of 'Troll lord Games sucks' and 'C&C sucks'.

[mistere29]

And the sycophants are not going to stop kissing Gary's butt. And Gary's writing will still reek of 2e. Really the internet is not about discussion among players, it's a big circle jerk of "me too" posts from wannabe game designers. Don't waste your time with it, unless you are playing online or recruiting players. The moderators of sites claim they are preventing trolls from posting, but what they do is CREATE trolls by censoring and vilifying anyone that might upset the status quo. If you have to post online, do it on an un-moderated forum. Sure, it’s still full of jerks, but at least all jerks are equal.

[geneweigel]

And the sycophants are not going to stop kissing Gary's butt. And Gary's writing will still reek of 2e. Really the internet is not about discussion among players, it's a big circle jerk of "me too" posts from wannabe game designers. Don't waste your time with it, unless you are playing online or recruiting players. The moderators of sites claim they are preventing trolls from posting, but what they do is CREATE trolls by censoring and vilifying anyone that might upset the status quo. If you have to post online, do it on an un-moderated forum. Sure, it’s still full of jerks, but at least all jerks are equal.

All the "D&D" on the net is bullshit anyway.

Show me a website that doles it out in the style and volume ala 1980 TSR.

You're not going to see it.

D&D on the internet has the same problem that published 2e had: the writers were too scared it was going to be taken away from them so they put nothing into it. So in a way the 2e was the D&D precursor of the D&D presence on the net:

no real work and lots of fluff.

The battle for an "original D&D style" publishing revival proved fatal to the cause when it actually happened. Some company spun through all our hopes and they died hard.

One thing to take into account is that there is no hero that will save D&D. D&D publications are a dead end. The rightful owners of the IP missed the boat and now its time to move on.

Sword and Sorcery fantasy doesn't need D&D. S&S owes nothing to the game as you can see from thousands of other fantasy games similiar to D&D over the years.

If there was a Protestant website that said it was "The Church" and if you were Roman Catholic would you go log on to comment that it isn't "The Church"? Dragonsfoot is English. English fans got their asses handed to them when Citadel/Games Workshop decided to go South with Warhammer's mediocrity. 2e to them is creme de la creme.

Anyway...

The C&Cs have proved they are beyond consideration for fans of "Sword & Sorcery come D&D" and are more aligned with a "rebirth of 2e" in a bid for a more centalized market between the originals and whatever they call D&D these days.

Gygax isn't King Theoden waiting for old Stormcrow to wake him up for one last ride. He's a businessman and a bad one at that. He's the same bad businessman who let us all down when he fell flat on his face in the fight for D&D back in 1985.

C&C hasn't even come close to Hackmaster's parody so I wouldn't be too upset that its going to fool any old fans.

[Scott]

Well Gene, I was in the middle of writing a lengthy reply, and my computer froze. Rather than try to rewrite it, I'm just going to smite you one instead.

[GT]

Well, it's not so much that the original IP owners missed the boat as that alot of money would have to have been ventured at just the right moment. Whereas i don't use C&C, I don't throw my monkey crap at them either--I just whistle and play AD&D 1E. With Yggsburgh, Dark Chateau and (soon, I hope...) CZ as well. ^__^

[geneweigel]

gt said:

Well, it's not so much that the original IP owners missed the boat as that alot of money would have to have been ventured at just the right moment. Whereas i don't use C&C, I don't throw my monkey crap at them either--I just whistle and play AD&D 1E. With Yggsburgh, Dark Chateau and (soon, I hope...) CZ as well. ^__^

No joke, I was implying Hasbro or WOTC or whomever as the rightful IP owners who missed the boat.



Sorry, about the rant. Its hard to control my feelings about the subject sometimes. Completely out of place especially here.

[Scott]

Hey GT, welcome back to the positive side of the karma axis.

[dcas]

Odd, I've found that some vehemently pro-OAD&D sites are among the most moderated on the web. Sometimes I think what the DF trolls really want is for DF to be more moderated, or at least more moderated in accordance with their own tastes.

[skaguest]

I have to agree with Mistere and Gene's post above.
DF, more so TLGs, is no longer a place where critique of a gaming system is permitted or alternative ideas are welcomed for discussion. (and yes, I post at DF as ska)

The oddest thing, is that there appears to be a distinct bias against 1e posters who defend 1e from those attacking it at DF. Very odd.

Scott---perhaps you are correct in that C&C and DF will not change their direction or behaviour (away from old school gaming) and continue on their descent, but is this a given?
What if you , a mod at DF, were to suggest openly that C&C could be a better game by chucking it's de facto skill system,. losing the worst art I ever ever seen for a fantasy game, and making other changes to make the game more old school.

This would not be out of line IMO. Remember that TLG originally asked old schoolers to give their input, unfortunatley this was a scam from the get go and was used as a clever PR stunt.

Why not let anyone come on the board s here (or at DF) and say here is what could makle C&C better? (ie more old school)


Perhaps if you and others made these suggestions then CZ might actually be different in format and execution? Perhaps you could make a difference?

Frankly, I skim DF and once in awhile post there, but DF is not the place it once was IMO. The only real thing of interest there to me now are the EGG Q&A threads.

Granted, I have not seen all the troll posts at DF, but I am certain some of them at least are valid questions from actual posters and not trolls. It is a sign of weakness that DF does not allow guest to post on the C&C boards. An old trick, if you do not like the message kill the messenger.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Scott]

All your points are just opinions, they're opinions I agree with for the most part, but they're still just opinions. Taking out the skills, or changing the art might make it more appealing to you or me, but making your or my perfect game isn't what the Trolls are going for. I dropped out of the C&C development group early because I could see it wasn't turning out to be what I expected. It wasn't for me so I moved on. How hard is that? I don't have the time or desire to write posts for things I'm not interested in, and have no chance of changing. C&C is not going to change. If you don't like it, don't waste your time making useless posts that aren't going to accomplish anything constructive. Stick to what you like, or write your own system.

[CC]

I agree with most of what you say, hence my lack of posting at the C&C forum at DF. I too, opted out after realizing C&C was not what it proclaimed it was going to try to be.

Where I disagree (and you would know better than me I suppose) is that perhaps statements made by you and other old schoolers might change how future C&C products look. If you have knowledge that this is not the case, then you are correct in what you posted.

I also think that what are my (and maybe your) opinions are actually fact. If C&C included a car mechanic player character both you and I woudl likley agree it was not old school, yet these also would be just opinions. C&C, let's face it, could have been old school in design if that had been the real purpose of the game.

Too bad, a great opportunity blown and EGG spending his time with this game.

I actually have started writing my own system, I can only hope to fnd the time to finsih the damn thing!

[Skaguest]

Ooops! that was me. Sorry (thought for a second I was putting in the subject).

[dcas]

AFAIK there was only one person who had 'veto' power over the C&C rules (aside from the Trolls of course): EGG.

As far as Yggsburgh and DC are concerned, they really have no C&C-specific rules in them except for ascending Armor Class (big deal) and variable monster hit dice (again, big deal -- these probably would have been introduced into a Gygaxian 2e anyway). There aren't even any "rogues" in Yggsburgh -- all such characters are "thieves"! Gary probably just saw that he could write as if he were writing for OAD&D and didn't concern himself with the small details of the system.

What if you , a mod at DF, were to suggest openly that C&C could be a better game by chucking it's de facto skill system,. losing the worst art I ever ever seen for a fantasy game, and making other changes to make the game more old school.

I think it very likely that he would be ignored at best and vilified at worst. I hold Scotty's opinions about AD&D, etc., in high regard, but his complaining about C&C would be . . . pointless. I'm betting that C&C has met or exceeded all of TLG's expectations for it and they're not going to mess with something that (a) works and (b) sells.

[Falconer]

I quickly realized that my opinion on C&C doesn't matter, since no matter how "old-school" it is I still would run AD&D 1st Edition. New games and latest editions are born and die every year (and C&C will be no exception), but 1st Edition will always be 1st Edition. No-one will ever be a more true master of the game than Gary Gygax. I owe it to my players to give them the true classic experience, and no compromise.

So I simply view C&C as it was originally intended: a Trojan Horse for Gary and Rob to be able to write for OAD&D. And in that I have no complaints as yet. So what is there to be upset about? Regards.

[geneweigel]

Well, Falconer, I feel like I had too much interest riding on this return of the old days of yore with Gary.

I bet all my chips on this one, got left behind and now I'm in the back bleachers waiting for-...

Wait! Bad analogy.

It's more like I'm C3PO back on Yavin as the Rebel commander says Luke has turned off his targeting computer as the Death Star's big red firing distance is now locked on my head and Luke says he's alrigh-...

No! That's not it. Let's see...

I'm Stacy Keach in UP IN SMOKE who was about to make the biggest bust of the century and I'm now raving," I'm stoned, Harry! I'm stoned!" with the van made of pot on fire right under my nose.

That analogy really says it all from my perspective!

[Axe Mental]

Falconer: "So I simply view C&C as it was originally intended: a Trojan Horse for Gary and Rob to be able to write for OAD&D. And in that I have no complaints as yet. So what is there to be upset about? Regards. "

Well, lets see what happens with the actual CG dungeons.
But, if the Trolls incert crap, could be bad.
Personally I think Gary's as turned off by C&C as alot of us, fell for the same bait and switch. He's just super nice, hates to make waves, and goes with what others say. I can't imagine him making a stink about anything.

Scott, I think your probably right about NOT being able to convince the Trolls. But, if you convince the fan base (their buyers) that stuff is gay, the Trolls may listen. These guys are about to publish CZ, the "Holly Grail" of 1E era modules. If the fans express thier dissatisfaction with PB artwork, incredibly stupid subplots, etc. it might actually prevent some of this crap from gettting in. Afrer all, once its published its too late. Now is the time to stir up public discontent if you want to have a positive influence (since the Trolls themselves are too dorky to know whats good and whats bad). If your not the type to do that kind of thing fine, but you should encourage those who don't care about their reputations to go at it. After all, its a public forum, so public feed back should be welcome (both good and bad).