D20 Spells For An AD&D Style Game: A Far Cry

[geneweigel]

I'm just comparing 3e spells from the D20 references to Advanced and Older and man, what a mess.

Its as if there was some reason to give classes even more spells than they had some of which are crushed together to get earlier than originally.

There is an old trend that seems to be keep everything the same and if its a new expansion of the same make it harder. Or when an old concept got nailed it was balanced out by making some parts low and some parts high like "detection" when it was branched into other spells.

The D20 trend seems to be the opposite of that for sure.

I wonder how the spells would have been treated in the "Gygax second edition" that never was?

Does DANGEROUS JOURNEYS lend a clue?

[GT]

Well, there's a logical flow chart to determine in a "points needed" fashion how much heka (magick energy) is needed to use a Casting ("spell"), and there is a point-level assigned to each Grade (similar to a "level", but there aren't class levels as per AD&D--it's a bit different). In short, it is a logical system that enables anyone using the chart properly to be on the same page. ^__^

[Scott]

The changes to the spells were probably one of the things I hated most about 3E. Talk about bland. Spell use became all attacks and buffs. Finesse and nuance, or anything else that required DM adjudication was cut back.

[geneweigel]

Oct 14, 2008 2:44:41 GMT -5 GT said:

Well, there's a logical flow chart to determine in a "points needed" fashion how much heka (magick energy) is needed to use a Casting ("spell"), and there is a point-level assigned to each Grade (similar to a "level", but there aren't class levels as per AD&D--it's a bit different). In short, it is a logical system that enables anyone using the chart properly to be on the same page. ^__^

I know its different for sure but was there anything discussed that hypothetically would have been in a Gygax helmed second edition AD&D? Not specifically but regarding spell diffusion into lesser and greater versions?

[geneweigel]

Oct 14, 2008 8:05:29 GMT -5 Scott said:

The changes to the spells were probably one of the things I hated most about 3E. Talk about bland. Spell use became all attacks and buffs. Finesse and nuance, or anything else that required DM adjudication was cut back.

The 2e definitely has both mitts in the 3e with all the bland spells Cook introduced as well as the "specializationing" of the illusionist making most of that available to regular casters still present.

Although there is a lot of new spells added as well. I was marking off what was new last night and I got a major headache sifting through all the books. I still think some spells, may have been renamed and put into something else.

There's no "read magic" in 3e. Thats kind of weird, I knew something was off when I was playing a spellcaster. So for a D20 based game would you just create a new spell that does the same thing? Or do you have to approach it completely different?

[geneweigel]

You know what is another amazing thing to see is all the UNEARTHED ARCANA remnants.

Some of which to me were just Gygaxian magazine-filling ephemera that were okay for a little extra flavor for a 20th level magic-user of modified intelligence perhaps (Like sepia snake sigil, otiluke's resilient sphere, etc.) not really material for a "core" book. Especially a "core" book that cut so much.

[Scott]

I think read magic is a 0 level spell in 3E.

[geneweigel]

Ah, thank you, sir. The cantrips are fatter of course! I hadn't thought of that! DAMMIT! More work!

Hey, here's something: Summon monster no longer "summons monsters" thats a major shift that I didn't realize. There are no "regular" monsters just planar types or planar templated animals.

[geneweigel]

Hey, by beefing up the 0 level cantrips with all those 1st level spells they kind of made it into 10 levels of spells. Especially that audible glamer, a 2nd level spell, is in there (as "ghost sound") with just very slight range and duration modifications but it has all the gusto. So 0 level is almost like a weakened 1st level in 3e.

[Scott]

Yep.

[Scott]

The whole 0 level spell concept bugged me. That, and bonus spells. I know the 1E one shot 1st level m-u wasn't the most exciting character, but the work put in made the higher level characters worth it. Now they make it easier at 1st level, and ho hum at high level. The only thing accomplished with the class balance concept they were obsessed with was to make each class equally bland.

[geneweigel]

I was just checking out other D20 systems approach to spells and OSRIC stays true to Non-UA AD&D (although it does have the same hiccup on permanency that Zeb did in 2e) and C&C seems to be just trimmed down 3e even keeping the above mentioned 0 level stuff.

I'm thinking of (instead of replicating those endeavors) maybe I'll just trim the shit out of it so that its completely bald of even "as is Advanced" but fully compatible. Not to do a doppleganger 3 book, Holmes, Chainmail or even Swords & Spells but to have something contemporary with those pre-AD&D and playable with AD&D.

But different in scope. So it'll be a good alternate game.

[Scott]

That's what I wanted to do, but the idea never generated any interest.

[geneweigel]

Yeah, Gary was so scrutinizing however if only we knew he would settle on such a low threshold in the end! Well, I guess he just went with whatever the publisher was doing so that had more incentive for him to lower his standards to "get it done'.

[geneweigel]

I was just checking out MYTHUS MAGICK and has anyone ever converted any of those spells to AD&D?

[Scott]

I started, but then decided to do it on a case by case basis, and no case has come up since.

[geneweigel]

Technically one could make new classes out of each DJ archtype but there would need some injection of a lot D&Disms into the class.

Theres still so many AD&D things that fell through the cracks. Like for instance, did anybody ever make an "AD&D classic style" specialist magic-user in the vein of the AD&D illusionist with old spells modified in level/power and new spells to fill the gaps?

[Scott]

Oct 14, 2008 19:57:25 GMT -5 geneweigel said:

Like for instance, did anybody ever make an "AD&D classic style" specialist magic-user in the vein of the AD&D illusionist with old spells modified in level/power and new spells to fill the gaps?

No, but I really think Mythus would help with this, basing your spell lists from the different schools. The elemental school would make a good base for a new specialist.

[GT]

Although I only ever played OP (NPC) Elemental School Dweomercraefters, I definitely think they have the coolest list of Castings! As to hints of Gary's version of 2E, I reiterate--look at the Mysticism castings to get some idea of what a "Mystic" might have been like, and Divination and Fortune-Telling for "Savant".

[geneweigel]

Yes, I've often wondered to him and of course he responded that AD&D sucks, then he would reply that it doesn't suck, then I'd wonder again, then he'd say it was ultimately worthless to ponder such things and he'll have nothing to do with it anymore, then he'd come back and say he didn't mean to say it that way, then I'd wonder again and he'd ask why should he give them something that they won't pay for, then he'd write back and say he was a little terse but he's feeling better, then I'd wonder again and he'd say that its time to move on, then he'd come back saying its great to talk about the good times and then he'd promise to send it to me right away and never get around to sending it...

Classic Gary (except edited for television)!