On page 11 of the folio - re: Free City of GH, at the end in parenthesis, it says "For greater detail see CITY OF GREYHAWK, published by TSR.
What is this referring to??
Its referring to the project that never happened. It was supposed to be in the 80's but with all that went down it never seen the light. This is the schtick that I was carrying around forever until I talked to Gary personally in and around 2000.
I was of the mind that they fucked up the city and the world after Gygax left and I was right so...
For a while I had a website (2001?) trying to get the gyst of the "Lost Greyhawk" but that was about it. A gyst. I got lots of help from Gary on it but in the end it wasn't to the exactitude of how I seen the city. Frankly, it required to much of his time to get the juicy details that I wanted to see and I think he intended to focus on it just enough to spark interest in seeing his "real version" of WORLD OF GREYHAWK reborn. But as his energy waned and the threat e-mails from 2e GH era people waxed, I lost interest real fast and closed it forever. Its too bad there was a lot of stuff for it but there wasn't enough to satisfy my need for substance.
Last Edit: Jul 14, 2008 22:36:28 GMT -5 by geneweigel
The details from the Gord books is as close to print as 'City of Greyhawk' got. Of course even thought Yggsburgh isn't Greyhawk, part of it was mined from that source. I think the biggest difference between the two locales is that in Greyhawk, the dungeon was only about two miles away.
I think the biggest difference between the two locales is that in Greyhawk, the dungeon was only about two miles away.
That would be good ~ might cut down on our number of ogre encounters in the Online Campaign!
I read the first two Gord books years ago, when they first came out over here, and loved them ~ they certainly had an edge, or perhaps a feeling of "real Greyhawk", that came from EGG himself.
I envy you guys, for knowing Gary as you did - however much - and for delving into the original campaign as much as you did. That envy is tempered by being utterly fascinated at each and every aspect that is revealed - I had wondered for years what the original campaign must have been like, so my endless curiosity is sated every now and again!
Always interested to read more, so feel free to pontificate at length for the uninitiated! ;D
The distance is one of the few things I don't like about the Yggsburgh setting. It makes it tough on new parties. Any single encounter can spell death or depletion of your resources for a new party, and it's almost impossible to make it the dungeons without encountering something. It makes it tough to really get a flow.
Gord the Rogue, eh?? Haha, that’s what got me thinking about trying to find more info on the City of Greyhawk,
I’ve only read the first 75 pages and I’m really liking the gritty, harsh “reality” of the poor quarters of GH and the underclasses.
I pulled out my copy of The Canting Crew and the Yggsburgh book to read some sections on the beggars and thieves guilds. And then I finally went back to the WoG box and folio and realized there isn’t much info on the City in those pubs.
So I guess I’ll stay with Saga of the Old City and continue reading all the books.
It's a shame that the City of GH thingy didn't get published back then.
Incidentally, I put in my order for CZ: The Upper Works and am looking forward to seeing that Box. Hopefully, TLG will be shipping it by the end of the month!
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax 1 November 1973 Men & Magic
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" Second Witch ~ Act IV Scene I Macbeth
Post by geneweigel on Jul 15, 2008 13:37:59 GMT -5
CITY OF HAWKS has a pretty good description of the general immenseness of it which is what confirmed to me that the 2e boxed city was not based on anything "Greyhawk" and was just a pile of badly written "hackery".
"TWISTBUCK'S GAME" has a tour of the streets however its linear and doesn't cover all areas.
Post by geneweigel on Jul 15, 2008 14:11:30 GMT -5
Here's the blurred map that I did based on knowledge of the novels (without Gary's help) and he said it was accurate.
The attempted fleshing out of this map into the "quarters" was mostly my work and it just turned into exactly that: "work". So as you can guess I'm not keen on merging that work as somebody else's pre-existing property into the public domain. Especially since there were threats that it would be snatched up by the IP owners. So if anybody is ever down NY way I'll show you the Weigel/Gygax version of GHC in person but not on the net.
So for the time being it'll remain a mystery....
Besides, I've been dedicating all my energy towards my own "The City of Bravesword" which is a tribute to Gary but all original. Someday I'm going to come out with a PDF of it.
Hypothetically speaking Gene, you could email or PM that Weigel/Gygax version of GHC to some 'friends' on a 'message board', and no-one would know. And if anyone questioned that, those 'friends' could deny all knowledge.
Post by geneweigel on Jul 16, 2008 14:13:00 GMT -5
Yes, but the bulk of it is hard copies. I had a crash at the lab that I used to work at so I've got it all in binders down in the dungeon. I'd have to scan and retype all the information and maps that Gary "approved of" and in the end it would be at best rejected as a newer 21st century anomaly comparable to the remnants of the official project that went into the TSR trash in the 80's. Or even of far lesser value than that.
Also of note supposedly, former TSR alum E. Shook has remnants of the "real" 1980's project but I have no proof of that. I even asked him in person and got an ambiguous answer. However he once said that he still had a poster-sized map but I'm not sure if this was a joke or not.
The best that I could do is to do my own thing and do it right. Instead of fleshing out the fragmented 21st century GHC thing. Maybe someday I'll get an offer but I find that very unlikely that anyone will take my word for Gygax's input. So its stuck in limbo forever. That is if anybody wants to come by and check out the files...
Where was the original Greyhawk Castle in relation to Greyhawk City? East or West of the "Grey Run"? When the original explorers left the city to go to the dungeons, which city gate did they exit?
"The Heart of Darkness" short story from NIGHT ARRANT places the castle ruins "on a high hill about three miles away from the northern verge of Greyhawk" (p. 15) and notes that it can be seen from any vantage point (I suppose high point) in the city. Also notable are some features of the geography surrounding the castle: "The only road, at one time smooth and easily accessible, had slowly deteriorated into little more than a rutted trail that was seldom, if ever, used any more. Local folk shunned the area, claiming that the things that dwelled beneath the pile of stones came forth at night to waylay the unwary. The land surrounding the castle for approximately a mile in any given direction was a tangled wilderness, save for that to the north of the castle's great mound. There lay a great bog with pools said to be bottomless and mires of deadliest sort."
In "The Expedition Into the Black Reservoir; a Dungeon Adventure at Greyhawk Castle" the location of the ruined castle is also described in the opening sentences: "To the east of the busy walled city of Greyhawk the land is forsaken, overgrown with thorns and thistles. Oozing marsh creeps slowly down. The copses are huddles of weird, bloated trees. The wiry grass seems to grasp at the feet of any who dare to tread upon it. In the center of this unwholesome place, on a rock-boned prominence, hulks the ruin of the grim Greyhawk Castle. Still a few of the bravest sort regularly frequent its precincts---one such as Erac, a spellcaster, Erac the Enchanter, Erac the ambitious, a paladin of Law. This same magic-user now commanded a party of four bent on despoiling the wicked dwellers of the underworld beneath the castle of some goodly treasure. At Erac's side paced the lama Londlar. At the back of one was Nulfyke, a dwarf swordsman, while behind the other was the acolyte Ugubb of the Lake of Crystals. The fallen west gate of Greyhawk Castle was at hand, and through this mouldering portal the party passed. In a few moments they had entered the great central keep, heaved open an inner door, and carefully proceeded down a set of winding stone steps---steps worn with age and slippery with dampness. They had entered the dungeons."
This isn't necessarily contradictory information. When one looks at the map in the CITY OF HAWKS the city can seen to be 8+ miles long by 4 miles wide. If you placed it 2/3 of an inch northeast of the OldGate, that is both 2 miles east of the city and also 3 miles away from the northern verge (edge) of the city. That location would also make sense, being at the end of an old road no longer used along the way to the old part of the city..
Gene's map above has what I think is an accurate representation of the castle environs -- but would be even more accurate if you slide it east so that it's NE of Oldgate and N of Bastion Isle... Anything west of Grey Run can't really be said to be "east" of Greyhawk City, per the CITY OF HAWKS map (the one Gene's map here is based on).
Last Edit: Aug 30, 2009 20:21:13 GMT -5 by GRWelsh
Post by geneweigel on Aug 30, 2009 23:01:59 GMT -5
Your enthusiasm is really well aimed but the grim truth is that you're talking about "Greyhawk" circa "Gnome Cache" with ETTBR and while that is Greyhawk of the purest stamp it is nevertheless a useless anomaly in regards to its usage for "GH for publication as a game/story". You know its an example of the same thing where they've disagreed over where things were, etc..
In regards to "GH" there was campaign "drift", two DMs, a version made for publication, loss of author, etc.
PLUS add all that on top of antagonism by the "TSR thieves" and the vicious ignorance of their grassroots "nerds of holy canon"!!!
In the end Greyhawk 2000 is just an anomaly that should have never been in the first place.
Last Edit: Aug 30, 2009 23:32:58 GMT -5 by geneweigel
This is purely a “How canonical is your nerd” exercise, I admit. It is only for my own satisfaction that I want to draw a map and have my own version of Greyhawk that is aesthetically accurate.
I realize there is no truly accurate answer because as you have pointed out there were different incarnations that were freely altered to suit the needs of play and fiction writing, over time.
I think your “Greyhawk 2000” project is great. But I completely understand that EGG’s reactions to that could range from forthcoming (being friendly to a fan’s curiosity) to dismissive (not wanting to waste efforts on a dead end). So, ultimately it’s the sort of thing that has to be done for your own satisfaction or a handful of other similarly minded fans.
I think what I really want (boring!) is a treatment of Greyhawk that is similar to Christopher Tolkien’s HISTORY OF MIDDLE EARTH series… a scholarly work. So, it may be perfectly true, for example that Greyhawk Mark I was a city with the castle being a completely ruined upper works 2 miles to the east, and Greyhawk Mark II was envisioned as a larger city with the castle upper works still being somewhat intact and located 3 miles to the north. I know Greyhawk was “reset” several times… It would be nice to have some scans with commentary about each stage -- and then use that as the basis for my own version. That is what I meant by “aesthetically” accurate.