The Hall of Many Panes

[foster1941]

Sorry, a bunch of other stuff came up so I haven't been able to finish reading this in order to issue a 'final verdict.' Yeah, there are some problems, but on the whole I think there's enough good stuff in here to make it a worthwhile purchase for all Gygax fans. Talking the guys at the game store into letting you open up a copy and peruse it yourself before purchasing is probably a good idea, but then if you do decide to buy it you're sort of morally obligated to pay full MSRP ($40) to them instead of getting the big amazon.com discount ($26.37).

[dzubak]

Sadly, I returned my copy to the FLGS on Saturday. I had high hopes for the adventure that were not meet. Unlike foster, I was really disappointed with the dungeon crawl portion of the adventure.

I think the main thing that ruined it for me was the module/referee introduction where it talked about having 'leniancy on the players' and 'fudging results' to 'keep the campaign going'.*

I'm not sure it that portion was written by Gary on his free will , under duress, or by another writer altogether but that sealed the deal for me as too what the majority of the set would be.

Depressed.
-D

*specifically the Demon Idol example but there were other!

[grodog]

Tell me about this Castle GH-like level, please!

[dcas]

geneweigel said:

dcs said:

Word on the street is that M&T is very well done and not afflicted by the editorial mistakes of the PHB. I haven't seen it myself so I can't really comment. However, this does give me hope for Yggsburgh and DC (by the way, the former has been at the printer since 7/12 and the latter is supposed to go to print the end of the month).

I'd really like to hear how it is. That is, if anybody that I know around here picks it up.

Well, I picked it up out of necessity and I can't really say that I'm impressed. The editing and layout are quite good, and the art is good, but the writing is somehow lacking, as if someone were trying to write 'Gygaxian' without being quite fluent in it.

[geneweigel]

I saw this on the shelf yesterday and I never played this 11 years later. Did anybody? I just leafed through it and I think its really too much work. That artwork and layout is like someone not even trying.

[Scott]

It's an OK read. Never tried running it. Conversion under the best of circumstances is hard work, and that's vintage TLG, which is bad.

[foster1941]

I sold my copy off a few years ago. At one point I was going to try to do a sort of scaled-back "best of" version using only 12 or 20 or so of the most interesting panes, but eventually decided it would be too much work with too little payoff.

There was way too much stuff there, and too much of it seemed similar to other stuff (there were a ton of panes that seemed almost exactly like other panes with only minor variation), and the way the set was organized made it extremely user-unfriendly. They desperately needed an index with a 1-2 sentence summary of the situation of each pane so you didn't have to page through 3 100-page books or remember that the pane with situation X was the yellow diamond-shaped pane, or whatever. Plus I kept looking for larger patterns based on the color and/or shape of the panes (that all panes of A shape involve the party being transformed into different bodies, all panes of B shape involve combat, all panes of C shape require verbal negotiations, all panes of X color are puzzles, all panes of Y color are underground environments, etc.) that would both help me to get a mental grasp the thing as I was reading it and would also help players to do so while playing it (to help strategize their approach), but if any such patterns existed I was never able to figure them out (though, to be fair, I don't think I ever actually read the whole thing - about halfway through I started just skimming the first paragraph or so and moved on if it didn't grab me).

Gary really talked this thing up before its release - the scale of it, the difficulty, the variety of challenges - and it sounded really great (as well as reminiscent of the challenge-gauntlet in Come Endless Darkness - which reminds me of another thing: in that book they eventually figured out a way to speed up their progress and skip over a bunch of the challenges, and I kept expecting there would be something similar in the adventure but there never was (unless I just overlooked it) - a party playing it would literally have to grind through every single pane) so I was really looking forward to it, and was hugely disappointed. And of course the terrible Troll Lord Games editing and production values, and the huge amount of space devoted to stats for 2 different games I don't play didn't help either.

[foster1941]

Interesting to compare my memories of it now with my responses as I was actually reading through it 10+ years ago (upthread). Needless to say the "Eureka!" moment I kept hoping for never came...

[geneweigel]

Its probably a blur but looking at it fresh the first thing is the descriptive titles at the start of each entry are not in the contents. Its just a list of colors that looks insanely unremarkable.

Another weird thing is the label on the side biding says the same thing on each book so they'll get lost outside the box.

I've become less familiar with LEJENDARY ADVENTURES creatures because after the Troll Lord redos it just made the whole thing worse.

Is there anything good from Troll Lords?

My honest feeling is they seem like genuinely excited to play a game type people but they can't get a break with product. Their slickest outing still seems to be DARK DRUIDS and I still thought it was a bad production.

I still think LOST CITY OF GAXMOOR feels like a part one that needs more.

[foster1941]

When I downsized my collection c. 2012ish nothing from Troll Lords made the cut. In retrospect I kind of wish I'd kept the Castle Zagyg: Upper Works box because I'd like to re-read it now because I suspect it's at least a little better than I originally gave it credit for (at the time I was so wrapped up in how obviously-not-written-by-Gary it was that I didn't really give it a fair shot), but second-hand copies go for $250+ and there's no way I'm willing to pay anything even close to that. On the plus side, I got a pretty nice amount for my copy when I sold it, so I don't have too many regrets. I mostly just wish I'd bothered to scan a pdf copy before I shipped it off...

[geneweigel]

About an hour after posting, I decided to give GARY GYGAX"S HALL OF MANY PANES (2005) the hardest look yet. I've just completed my complete read...

BARF!!!!

Seriously, it has its moments but it really seems some of this is just rough notes of a DM that knows full well what they're serving up. Anymore detail than this and I'd practically be ripping it off:

Evil god had made you fight monster owls (already happened?) and poof you're stuck in "The Cylinder" which referred to as the "The Pipe" later on. "The Cylinder/The Pipe" is constructed by a deity who is really Zagyg. Zagyg has redirected evil deity's banishment to the underworld of the PCs and instead they arrive here. "The Cylinder/The Pipe" is built around the pocket prison of a hero deity (quasi-deity) named "Mcgregtimm" as a way for Zagyg to indirectly free the hero deity. "The Cylinder/The Pipe" is a player's ideal respite with various magical propertied fauna. Walking one way goes up the other goes down to access the pans. This should have been drawn out.

DISC SHAPED PANES:

1)Red (Scarlet) THE GIANT FOREST: Turned into acorn people attacked by birds/chipmunk/pigs.
2)Orange (Tangerine) A DEN OF DEVIL WORSHIPPERS: Cavemen sacrifing PCs to stone god
3)Yellow (Buff) THE VILLAGE IN THE MIGHTY TREES: Losels (are banderlogs it seems from this) in a suspended tree village.
4)Green (Pale) THE PRISONER IN THE IRON MASK: "Prince" guarded by "fire elemental ropers" is really greater mind flayer EHP of Dhu-khalkru
5)Blue (Royal) THE GARDEN PATH: Moebius strip with killer plants/plant-like monsters most are standard.
6)Indigo (Intense) ROBBIN'S HOODS: Alfar kobolds (from LA) ambush mounted characters.
7)Violet (Magenta) IN A THIEVES' MARKET: 3 people to follow one goes to an Odd Alley-like place, another rescues prince and third brings you to vampire lord to be killed.

HEXAGON-SHAPED PANES

8)Red (Rose) DUNGEON DELVING: Greyhawk-like dungeon level with necklaces activating areas with monsters, etc.
9)Orange (Flame) GOLEMS GALORE!: 7 golems/7 swords to fight big golem
10)Yellow (Chartreuse) GOLEM MY WAY: PCs become golems from area 9 and attack their doubles.
11)Green (Lime) DUCKING A DRAKE: White dragon's lair.
12)Blue (Aquamarine) WHY ARE YOU HERE?: 3 deities of good, evil and neutral judging PCs.
13)Indigo (Navy blue) BLOWING IN THE WIND: Transformed into cloud-like entities with faces run in to various air gods.
14)Violet (plum) HORSING AROUND: Turned into tribesmen wanting to steal horses.

LOZENGE-SHAPED PANES

15)Red (Crimson) A SHOOTING GALLERY: Shooting gallery with prizes.
16)Orange (Bright) SEVEN KEYS TO BALDPATE: "Expurgatory" a plane of puns made of letters. Figure out puns.
17)Yellow (Straw-colored) A CASTLE UNDERSIEGE: Elf stronghold needs reinforcements.
18)Green (Apple green) THE GALLERY OF STONES: battle chimers special gorgon and medusa offspring.
19)Blue (Sky blue) THE PRICKLY DESERT: Dart-shooting badgers disguised as cacti.
20)Indigo (Pale) AT SIXES AND SEVENS: Puzzle dungeon. Teleporting. Var. big monsters.
21)Violet (Mauve) AN EXOTIC CARAVANSERAI: Outpost caravan arives/departs in a time loop of a sort that refreshes over and over.

OVAL-SHAPED PANES

22)Red (Magenta) HUNTING ON THE VELDT: Transformed into lions to kill demon buffalo.
23)Orange (Rust) IN THE POLAR WASTE: Snow world/snow monsters.
24)Yellow (Golden) THE IRON THRONE ROOM: Skeleton monster king.
25)Green (Mosss) INVISIBLE HOBGOBLINS: Alfar hobgoblins (from LA)
26)Blue (Robin's egg) THE DEMONIC LABORATORY: Seemingly infinite space of pillars, vats and humanoid-like automatons.
27)Indigo (Blue-black) A GRUMPY FOREST GIANT: New type giant wants to escape forest.
28)Violet (Pure) TO RESCUE THE OPPRESSED: Help pig-like (LA) slaves fight slavers.

RECTANGLE-SHAPED PANES

29)Red (Wine red) RIDERS OF THE HORDE: Become barbarians take over army go to city to warn of treachery.
30)Orange (Pale) WITHIN A TERMITE MOUND: Termite mound shrunk down.
31)Yellow (Lemon) IN A DURANCE VILE: Jail with cultists who are anti-Zagyg
32)Green (Sea) ATOP A TOWER: Attacked by flying things struggle to get down tower.
33)Blue (Spark blue) BACK WHERE YOU STARTED: Bogus starting area "The Pipe" has fake allies/aid
34)Indigo (Blue-violet) FETCH ME A VILLAINY!: Ultra-powered, short-tempered creature wants a "villainy" go to town figure out
35)Violet (Purple) MORE PANES: Fight statues then you double and get triangles.

SQUARE-SHAPED PANES

36)Red (Fuschia) STRANDED IN THE JUNGLE: Shaman sends jungle animals to attack.
37)Orange (Apricot) O YE WHALE!: Kill Moby Dick/dragon turtle/pirates
38)Yellow (Pure, intense) SOUTH SEA PIRATES: Become native islanders betray blood-thirsty native islanders.
39)Green (Olive) FREEBOOTING FUN: Become "good" pirates attacking ship.
40)Blue (Cerulean) JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE: Ghasts graveyard->Fane tough wight->Fake exit to mummies
41)Indigo (Darkest blue) CURTAIN CALL!: Spacey fish god wants PCs to them their stories about themselves.
42) Violet (Lilac) A TREASURE HUNT: Look for list of items in really vague outline of small town.

TRIANGLE-SHAPED PANES

43)Red (Ruby) OFF WE GO INTO THE WILD BLUE YONDER: Become part of fantasy air force of pegasi-riding amazons (armor changes but no sex change) fight winged creatures.
44)Orange (Coral) CIRCLE THE WAGONS: Caravan attacked by brigands & humanoids.
45)Yellow (Topaz) ORIENTAL CAPERS: Flying carpet vs. flying monsters.
46)Green (Emerald) FULL FATHOM FIVE: Swim like fish fight sea monsters. This should have had a map.
47)Blue (Sapphire) DOING MORE GOOD: Fight trolls for duergar/trow. No description/stats for any troll action so assumed its half-baked.
48)Indigo (Spinel deepest blue) THE PUZZLE OF THE SIX PAVILIONS: Guess knight correctly or fight.
49)Violet (Amethyst) IN A STONY MAZE: Maze with spiders.

STAR-SHAPED PANE Only appears if 7 different base colors plus all of one type color

50)White (Crystalline) RESCUED AT LAST!: Fake "Mcgregtimm" devil giant tries to drown PCs

SUN-SHAPED PANE activate all panes to access

51) Black (Ebon) A LONELY PLACE: Locate real "Mcgregtimm" fight monsters along the way.

[foster1941]

Wow, I remember no more than about 1 in 4 of those. Reading that thing felt like such a grind; I can only imagine how it would feel to spend 1-2 years (conservatively) actually going through it as a player. Scaling back to 21 or so panes, and some gimmick that there are like 5 "key" panes that you need to recover a macguffin from in order to unlock the final pane and if you do that you can skip the other panes, and some way for clever players to figure that out, would have helped it tremendously. That and providing a (competently-rendered) map for every pane.

Also, I can't remember for sure, are there any hints about the nature of the challenge to be faced in the panes before entering them? I seem to recall that there wasn't - that from the Cylinder/Pipe every pane looked exactly the same (except for its shape and color) until you entered it. Giving the players a way to preview the challenges - or at least the environments (this one leads to woods, this one to a town, this one is underground, etc.) - to allow the players to strategize the order in which they want to face them (and also do some prepwork as far as what spells to prepare, etc.) would also have gone a long way to making this adventure feel more interactive, to make the players feel like they've got at least a bit of agency and everything's not just completely arbitrary.

And, looking at the list again, I am correct that there's no discernable pattern between the color or shape of the panes and what's on the other side, right? If there is a pattern and I'm just not picking up on it, can somebody please explain it?

[geneweigel]

Perhaps "GARY GYGAX'S MAGIC PAINTING ADVENTURE HOOK COLLECTION" would have been far more accurate in describing this.

I would have developed this a lot then sent it back to him to polish for sure and it probably would have been an all-time classic. He worked with too many "type monkeys" on this.

[geneweigel]

In regards to THE UPPER WORKS its not what I expected at all. I think this Panes thing is probably closer to Castle Greyhawk than a single instance of the Castle Zagyg project. Probably because it could be closer. The whole C&C thing was ruinous to my fandom. Remember prior to C&C when I was thinking of starting a new Castle & Crusade Society as a club?

An energy beam ripples through time to 2001..

WHO ARE YOU?

You're Gene Weigel of the past? I'm Gene Weigel of the future here to warn you to...

SHADDAP I'VE GOT TO GET UP TO SPEED ON THESE D20 PRODUCTS. THEY'RE THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE, OLD MAN!

Wait, Gene, don't buy those Jim Ward Fast Forward Productions hardcovers. Nooooo...

[Scott]

Once you actually get to the dungeon level, it's pretty close. It's almost an identical map, and a lot of elements EGG mentioned are there. But there's just so much fluff first. I don't know why EGG couldn't get that people just wanted the dungeons. Nobody was looking for Yggsburgh, and all it's parts, or the sprawling castle complex. The dungeons were what his fans were looking for, and so much time and effort were diverted to other work, and we ended up with the Store Rooms.

[geneweigel]

I feel like YGGSBURGH is such a mess that the product line is still unknown to me.

What were all the projects people were talking about? Was that parts of the hardcover?

In regards to Castle Zagyg Upper Works is there any way to delete the material that seems off by that mapper guy?

[GRWelsh]

Feb 13, 2016 14:07:36 GMT -5 Scott said:

Once you actually get to the dungeon level, it's pretty close. It's almost an identical map, and a lot of elements EGG mentioned are there. But there's just so much fluff first. I don't know why EGG couldn't get that people just wanted the dungeons. Nobody was looking for Yggsburgh, and all it's parts, or the sprawling castle complex. The dungeons were what his fans were looking for, and so much time and effort were diverted to other work, and we ended up with the Store Rooms.

I've always assumed that EGG was persuaded that since the Greyhawk Dungeons were considered a Holy Grail by many gamers, especially middle-aged ones (like us) with lots of disposable income, the Dungeons could be used as the "lure" to sell many, many, many products rather than just one, single, best-selling product. Seems rather obvious!

And, it's true! I would have gladly bought twenty or thirty products, to actually get what I wanted: a view of the 'original' Greyhawk Dungeons... Or even the Mark II Gygax-Kuntz collaboration version.

If I had a stack of boxed sets and books on my shelf that in total cost over a thousand bucks, but all together gave me a reasonable facsimile of the 1970's era Greyhawk Dungeons, I couldn't be happier.

[geneweigel]

He definitely had the city work in progress when I first started talkng with him. CASTLE ZAGYG VOL I: YGGSBURGH (2005) seems to contain a town originally destined for "Learth" like the city from CANTING CREW (2001) called "Ludnum".

[Zenopus]

*bump*

This post may be of interest to some here. I take a look at the HOMP dungeon level and relation to other Gygax dungeon elements of the '70s:

zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2017/12/gygaxs-dungeon-level-from-hall-of-many.html

[geneweigel]

In theory, Hall of Many Panes should have been a modern examination.

As a close fan of Gygax, I've been tip-toeing around his associates for so long that I find it hard to be honest without inciting their attention. Its also so hard to go over these because I have a compulsion to want to fix them. .

Anyway, the dungeon layout is definitely a pattern but its his automatic way of laying out a confusing challenge. His hack designers had no interest in continuing his style they just wanted to hand in their home work late and get a check. Thats what it looks like.

They had no interest in the DMG tables (random and non-random) those charts are the life blood of the game.