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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 4, 2005 16:37:34 GMT -5
I also don't care as much about Yggsburgh and Dark Chateau as the dungeons proper.
There's nothing wrong with doing those projects, they're fine. I just don't like them being named under the "Castle Zagyg" headline... when we're not getting any Castle Zagyg.
I hope Gary and Rob rely mainly on the classic Greyhawk Dungeon of olden days, the one they co-DM'ed... and don't worry too much about "updating" or "streamlining" or "making it all more plausible" or any of that nonsense. Also, if they do this, there shouldn't be much to come up with. It's just a matter of organizing and typing up material already in existence!
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GT
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Post by GT on Dec 4, 2005 17:57:21 GMT -5
Rob has said that he's throwing in Gary's notes and some of the ol' Greyhawk goodness for the first installment. If anything, I suspect a few bonuses will be added.
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Post by Scott on Dec 4, 2005 18:30:40 GMT -5
It sounds like the content/theme is going to be pretty true to the original, but the map will have a lot of reworking. And the content will have to be solidified for the first time. For example, I imagine a section of the dungoen that was where the kobolds lived. Maybe a few notes on the kobold leader, and that's it. The rest would be winged as the adventures occured. Gary or Rob would mentally throw a group of kobolds together and launch them at the party on the spot. Maybe make some notes based on the results of encounters.
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Post by Axe Mental on Dec 5, 2005 8:56:55 GMT -5
Does anyone know what CZ2 will cover? The above ground stuff and the first dungeon level perhaps? Just wondering.
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 5, 2005 9:21:06 GMT -5
AFAIK the first volume (or 2nd? ) will cover only the ruins of the Castle and not any of the dungeon levels. That's what I remember from Gary's outline of the whole project. Here's the TLG page on Vol. 2: www.trolllord.com/cz2.htm
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 5, 2005 9:36:04 GMT -5
I can't understand what Gary is doing with those 19 sections of Yggsburgh. Other than the people working on them, I've seen no interest. It seems like a mistake to me that will wind up wasting TLG resources and further delay the CZ material, which is the material that is really in demand. Well, as one of those 19 people, I certainly hope that whatever I'm doing doesn't take precedence over the CZ dungeons. Why is Gary doing it? I'm not sure; you would have to ask him. I'm just grateful for the opportunity to work with him. Hopefully you'll find what the other designers and I are working on useful. If not, well, that's OK too.
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Post by Axe Mental on Dec 5, 2005 11:03:19 GMT -5
Why the Trolls didn't first publish the castle and ruins is a wonder (yggsburgh could have come later). Maybe Gygax pushed for it (not wanting to mess with the castle yet). Yggsburgh wasn't what people were waiting for, thats for sure. I have yet to hear anyone estatic over it.
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 5, 2005 11:11:07 GMT -5
Why the Trolls didn't first publish the castle and ruins is a wonder (yggsburgh could have come later). Because it's not in publishable format, that's why. It barely exists in outline format. I'm sure he felt that the Castle needed to be set in a well-developed wilderness area. That's what Yggsburgh is. Some folks (myself among them) like wilderness adventures as a prelude to dungeon-delving.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 5, 2005 15:06:36 GMT -5
You would be completely out of context saying there was no call for a Gygax setting. There was a call for Greyhawk city since Greyhawk day one.
I don't know what planet a GH fan would be from claiming that there was no call for a setting.
Doesn't anyone recall waiting for Greyhawk?
The dungeons were done if you recall... WG6 Isle of the Ape, S3 Expedition To Barrier Peaks, EX1 Dungeonland and EX2 Beyond the Magic Mirror. All were refitted to fit into the new locale module set up but all were intended for Castle Greyhawk.
The city was promised as the ultimate starting place and never delivered. The dungeons well... we've already seen them.
The Gord adventures shined a light that kept us waiting for the eventual unveiling of the City of Greyhawk.
Many things have stood in the way to deliver and the current idiots, circumstances and varied states of health can't be held responsible for over twenty years of lies, deceit, betrayal, self-promotion, ignorance and whatever the hell you want to throw in there.
Look at the morons who tout Greyhawk at WOTc! Thats a way bigger problem than "almost Greyhawk" going "flat in the can". WOTC isn't required to go in half-full to manage flying under the legal radar and look at the banal garbage they've pumped out under the name "Greyhawk".
Attack the license holders not the license losers. Thats why your making everyone run to Gary's aid in his hour of need.
Attack WOTC and leave TLG alone or shut the f**k up is what the real response is here and perhaps they're right.
The C&C stuff is an alternative and complain about an alternative with another alternative or why bother?
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 5, 2005 15:34:18 GMT -5
Now that I've figured out what you're saying, Gene, I think I can exalt you.
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Post by axeguest on Dec 5, 2005 15:46:50 GMT -5
dcas: "Because it's not in publishable format, that's why. It barely exists in outline format." And Yggs was more developed then that? Man, it'd been nice for at least part of the Castle ruins to have been included. Hell, I'd of probably bought the book despite my disinterest in teh rest. I guess I don't share peoples enthusiasm for background and setting.
Gene WOTC is off the radar for me (and I think most of us). Not worth my time any longer. TLG, on the other hand, are holding gold. Hopefully they (and Gygax) will present it untarnished. dcas seems to think they will, and I hope he's right.
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 5, 2005 15:53:17 GMT -5
Look, it's simple. The Trolls don't tell Gary what to write. He decides what he would like to write and the Trolls publish it (or not, which is why he's published with other outfits, too). Yggsburgh is the way it is and it is the first volume of the CZ series because that's the way that Gary wanted it. End of story.
On the subject of Castle Greyhawk dungeons, I have heard (from Frank Mentzer) that The Hall of Many Panes has some CG-goodness in disguise.
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Post by geneweigel on Dec 5, 2005 16:15:22 GMT -5
Gene WOTC is off the radar for me (and I think most of us). Not worth my time any longer. TLG, on the other hand, are holding gold. Hopefully they (and Gygax) will present it untarnished. dcas seems to think they will, and I hope he's right. WOTC has the mechanism to get overridden hence the problem. TLG on the other hand is a mom and pop outfit with mom and pop being part of the problem over at WOTC. The problem needs to be addressed at WOTC. The only reason someone like Gary or Rob Kuntz wants the old fans to stay away from WOTC is that they think its good business. Who gives a rat's behind what they think is good business? Make it bad business all around then the heroes will rise. Going to a nightclub and saying you're not real punks is pointless when you should be shaking down the man.
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Post by grodog on Dec 6, 2005 15:21:52 GMT -5
It sounds like the content/theme is going to be pretty true to the original, but the map will have a lot of reworking. I know Rob was trying to use the original maps as the basis, at the very least, for the new CZ maps.
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Post by grodog on Dec 6, 2005 15:26:23 GMT -5
On the subject of Castle Greyhawk dungeons, I have heard (from Frank Mentzer) that The Hall of Many Panes has some CG-goodness in disguise. I've heard that too, and would be interested in more details on that subject!
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 6, 2005 15:51:32 GMT -5
Maybe GT could weigh in here, since he is featured in HOMP (the bard McGregtim). My guess is that EGG used some of the extra-planar material associated with CG to create some of the panes in HOMP. Not to mention the fact that the characters in HOMP are being led around by a certain trickster deity. . . .
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GT
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Post by GT on Dec 7, 2005 9:31:14 GMT -5
I really can't tell you exactly which parts were originally Greyhawk, and which were new. Gary ran the HoMP for months, and I showed up a couple of times including (I believe...) the day Alex and his buddies finished running through it. But I had no part in any of its design---Gary just put McGregtim in there because of work we did on DJ and LA. It could be incorporated into Castle Greyhawk, but I think Gary's main intent here was to supply a LA module more than anything else. As for the Castle proper, I trust that Gary and Rob will release a useable product as close to the original as possible. As Gary has said in other instances: "The proof will be in the pudding". Also: Congrats DCAS on working on part of the setting! I eagerly await the results!Lastly; Atrego, Grash and company, we need to consult to find a way to pull one over on Scott in the dungeons and... Crap! This is Scott's board, isn't it?? ^__^
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 7, 2005 10:32:46 GMT -5
I'm sure he felt that the Castle needed to be set in a well-developed wilderness area. That's what Yggsburgh is. Some folks (myself among them) like wilderness adventures as a prelude to dungeon-delving. Just an additional comment on this. One of the things for which T1-4 is sometimes criticized is that it doesn't have a well-developed wilderness area surrounding it. It is nevertheless a great module, but it is lacking because the GM has to develop any wilderness encounters himself with little or no guidance from the module itself. Think of Yggsburgh as the Village of Hommelet and Dark Chateau as the Moathouse of Elemental Evil, and you won't be too far wrong. Am I ecstatic over Yggsburgh? I'm not sure that's the right word. But then I wasn't ecstatic over B2 or T1 when I first read them -- then later I recognized how truly great these modules were. I'm guessing that over time I will think of Yggsburgh in the same way. It has all of the elements that make Hommelet and the Keep interesting places to adventure. Now, I just have to get my PCs to the East Mark. . . .
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Post by Scott on Dec 7, 2005 11:04:19 GMT -5
In preperation for a new campaign, I've been trying to familiarize myself with Yggsburgh. The more I read it, the more I like it. The editing is bad, even for TLG standards, but the content is pure old school Gygax; it is Hommlet or the Keep on a much grander scale. Content-wise, my only real disappointment is the insipid temple descriptions. I know it's a generic setting, but the lack of detail is disappointing. And to be a nitpicker, if the setting is supposed to be "rather English in culture" than all of the Local Palatine Nobles need corrected. The Baron of Redfort should just be Baron Redfort, barons never use 'of'. The Count of Easmoor should be the Earl of Easmoor, count is not a title in English Peerage. And the Marquis of Talworth should be the Marquess of Talworth, using the English peerage spelling.
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Dec 7, 2005 11:35:42 GMT -5
You should post this to the "Outs Inn" forum on the TLG boards -- also make EGG aware of it. As far as Easmoor is concerned, one could replace "Count" with "Earl" or "Viscount." And I don't think one should get worked up over the spelling of "Marquis/Marquess." "Marquis" is still sometimes used to the best of my knowledge, and "Marquess" is derived from it at any rate. If you really wanted to kick it old-school, you would use "Margrave."
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