GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 2:16:18 GMT -5
There is some controversy over using the C&C system for this module, but I believe that will be closer than the 3E D20 drek that might have been used. [BTW, industry insiders say that D20 will be gone by 2006, and that a new version of AD&D (yes, 4th edition!) that is based on a somewhat different system is in the works. SHHHHH!!! You didn't hear it from the Pun Demon, and no I won't tell you my sources. For better or worse, we'll just have to wait and see...] At any rate, what I personally will be looking for here is the "Gygax-Kuntz" touch. I run 1E AD&D, and I don't really plan on converting at this point (the spots on the old leopard syndrome)--I'll simply convert it to my system. What I DO want to see is: The Great Stone Face Enigma, the Gem Man, the Fountain of Endless Snakes, the Kobold army, etc. I'll buy the product because FINALLY, after a quarter of a decade of waiting, I'll get to see a version of Castle Greyhawk presented by the original authors themselves! You know, in all of the time I've known Gary we've never actually played in that milieux--he had moved on to other things... So here's hoping for an invite to go up and playtest some Greyhawk... ^__^
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Post by Scott on Sept 28, 2004 5:20:15 GMT -5
GT, EGG has been running Greyhawk Castle during his regular Thurday nights game, using OD&D rules. I've been tempted to drive up for a session. Perhaps we could coordinate something. Maybe we could make a weekend out of it and delve all weekend, or we could try a little Mythus, or Unhallowed as well, Scott
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 9:04:52 GMT -5
That would work. For me, it is but a one-day trip to drive up, hang with the Gar-bear for a bit, and then come back. For you I realize it's a bit more of a haul...
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 28, 2004 12:15:42 GMT -5
I'm very uneasy about the whole Castle Zagyg project. Not that I don't trust Gary and Rob, but I wonder how much second-guessing and 'revision' they're going to do when revising their 30+ year old campaign notes, both as a reflection of how their ideas have changed in the intervening years, but also from their perception of 'what the market wants.' The fact that they've decided to compile the 40+ levels of the original into 20-25 'best of' levels is already a bit worrying -- what are we going to not be seeing from those other 15-20 levels? I assume all of the most famous places/people will be present, but I'm not hoping for just "Greyhawk's Greatest Hits," I'm hoping for the whole experience -- including all the filler and red herrings and dead ends and empty rooms and other stuff that hasn't become famous in the retelling but is nonetheless part and parcel of the "Castle Greyhawk mystique." Even though it's not going to actually happen, I'd hope to be able to run multiple expeditions through the dungeons simultaneously, each with their own unique goals and agendas that are entirely independent of each other and need never even know each other exist; I hope for areas that might still be unexplored even after years of play by dozens, even hundreds, of players; I hope for something so overwhelmingly epic in size and scale that no single group of players/characters could ever dream of 'finishing the whole thing.'
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Sept 28, 2004 12:27:53 GMT -5
I hope they don't include the level with endless hexagonal rooms. Foster, Gary has already said that not all of his secrets will be revealed. I would expect the final product to be quite a bit different from the original Castle Greyhawk.
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 12:47:16 GMT -5
I suspect that some of the stuff that Gary and Rob consider "filler" will be edited out--I would do the same with some of my own stuff. Remember, also, that some of the "40+" levels included side planes like Dungeonland and Isle Of The Ape to name two, and although the portals to these might be included, I highly doubt that the entire adventures will be. As Gary apparently still runs Greyhawk, I suppose it is still a work-in-progress of sorts anyhow...
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 28, 2004 13:03:12 GMT -5
Foster, Gary has already said that not all of his secrets will be revealed. I would expect the final product to be quite a bit different from the original Castle Greyhawk. That's exactly what I'm worried about. I don't so much want to see Castle Zagyg as "an entirely new dungeon inspired in part by the original Greyhawk Castle campaign notes" (in the same manner that Yggsburgh seems to be "an entirely new town inspired in part by the original Greyhawk City campaign notes"), I want it to be Greyhawk Castle, as close as possible/feasible to what the original campaign participants would've seen/explored back in the early 70s. As I think I've said before, I'd probably prefer a collection of scans and photocopies of Gary and Rob's original maps and handwritten notes to an actual polished, professional product, because what I'm interested in is not so much the actual finished product itself as a module to run my own players through but more the design process behind it -- the look 'behind the curtain' at how the originator of the game actually designed and played it way back when. I want Castle Zagyg to be not just a really big, really cool module, but also a time-capsule into the origins of the game. That's what I really hope to see.
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 13:18:11 GMT -5
Possibly Rob will include some scans with his project so we can see what the original looked like...
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Sept 28, 2004 14:07:06 GMT -5
Well, Foster, I suspect that you might never see what you want to see unless Ernie, Luke, or Alex pulls a "Christopher Tolkien" many years from now.
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 14:22:49 GMT -5
An apt comparison, since the Silmarillion was basically a compilation of historical notes and background, as opposed to the "final product" of the Lord of the Rings.
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 16:18:11 GMT -5
foster--Have you e-mailed Gary with your concerns about Greyhawk Castle (by whatever name?) I mean, it's obvious that he cannot release mere "rough notes" as a public release, but maybe he can release something similar to up on a soapbx--rather like a DVD commentary. "This is what we did here originally, this is why I left it in/took it out..." That would be rather informative...
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Post by Scott on Sept 28, 2004 16:32:01 GMT -5
What I want, is the stone face, the gem man, the nine, the slide to china, the sub level with the wading pools where Erac cashed in. The Black Reservoire. A replacement for Otto on the 2nd level. The 3-way gate that had labels above each arch: Horsing Around, Monkeying Around (Isle of the Ape), and Clowning Around (I think). Meeting Zagyg at the bottom. Scott
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 16:38:05 GMT -5
Yeah... "The Nine"; that's a tough call! By rights they are already unleashed, and some are even Lesser Deities now. Maybe there will be an option to play that as 'before or after' Robilar paid a visit! ^__^
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 28, 2004 17:12:36 GMT -5
What I want, is the stone face, the gem man, the nine, the slide to china, the sub level with the wading pools where Erac cashed in. The Black Reservoire. A replacement for Otto on the 2nd level. The 3-way gate that had labels above each arch: Horsing Around, Monkeying Around (Isle of the Ape), and Clowning Around (I think). Meeting Zagyg at the bottom. I want all of those things too (and am assuming we're going to get them, or at least most of them), but I also want to have them in as close as possible to their original context, rather than just being strung together one after the other in "greatest hits" fashion -- I also want all those empty/mundane rooms and passages and stairways Erac and co. passed through before they got to the Black Reservoir, and the rooms where Ernie and Elise had their first ever dungeon adventure, and the areas where those parties of 20 players used to go romp and the only memorable thing about the session was the number of players involved. Gary suggested in the 'dungeon designing advice' section of OD&D vol. 3 that most of each level, including all of the most heavily-traveled areas, should be mostly mundane and/or empty, with all of the really interesting stuff tucked away in remote or hard-to-access areas. I assume since he was giving this advice that this is the design-scheme he used on GC, and am therefore hoping that he's stuck with something like it for the 'redesigned' Castle Zagyg and not given too much into the temptation to trim out most of that mundane stuff and just leave the highlights because 'that's what people want to see.'
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Sept 28, 2004 17:25:48 GMT -5
foster--Have you e-mailed Gary with your concerns about Greyhawk Castle (by whatever name?) I mean, it's obvious that he cannot release mere "rough notes" as a public release, but maybe he can release something similar to up on a soapbx--rather like a DVD commentary. "This is what we did here originally, this is why I left it in/took it out..." That would be rather informative... I don't like to send Gary emails because I don't know him personally (I've met him a couple times at cons but that was years ago and strictly on a 'fan' basis) and would feel like I was intruding and pestering him. Therefore I prefer to limit my pestering to public messageboard fora where he can respond or ignore me as he chooses. I know that now that "Up on a Soapbox" has ended its run in Dragon that he and Rob have been talking about compiling the various columns (and other miscellaneous related stories/reminiscences) into book-form, and perhaps some specific Castle Zagyg "designer's notes" might be something that would also fit in there. Only problem is I doubt Gary wants to take the time and effort to write such a thing -- perhaps it would be better if they actually did it like a DVD commentary -- Gary flips through the finished book talking about whatever catches his fancy, somebody is on-hand with a tape recorder who then transcribes and publishes his comments, indexed by page #.
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Post by Scott on Sept 28, 2004 20:37:49 GMT -5
The 'greatest hits' was all that Gary wrote. Most of everything else was rolled randomly, or made up, as they went along. Some levels were just maps, and level names, and Gary would wing it as he went based on those two things. "This is the "Orc & Troll" level, I think I'll throw some orcs at them". That's how most of the games went. It would be impossible to reproduce the original dungeon because most of it was so fluid. This is the first time Gary and Rob are actually writing more than sketch notes down for most of the dungeon. I want the greatest hits. I can add all the extra empty or randomly stocked rooms I need. Scott
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 28, 2004 22:18:43 GMT -5
I had a chat with Rob recently about two weeks ago and he went over a lot of tidbits of GH. From what I've gathered out of hearing these characters talk on the phone is that Greyhawk is alive and well in both of them. Rob took me on a little trip to the old castle and then went to whats in store for the Horrid Swamp as well. I'm pumped is all I can say.
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GT
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Post by GT on Sept 28, 2004 22:21:32 GMT -5
I think that B1 "In Search Of The Unknown" is a good example of a "random" dungeon. This was (fittingly) the first module I ever ran the characters from my campaign in, and I have very fond memories of that. Nonetheless, when compared to, say, S4 it becomes apparent that it is somewhat "haphazard" in design. Again, I believe that Rob can be convinced to put some scans of original levels on his CD project, to give people the idea of how they looked at the time of conception.
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dcas
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Post by dcas on Sept 29, 2004 9:15:31 GMT -5
I want all of those things too (and am assuming we're going to get them, or at least most of them), but I also want to have them in as close as possible to their original context, rather than just being strung together one after the other in "greatest hits" fashion -- I also want all those empty/mundane rooms and passages and stairways Erac and co. passed through before they got to the Black Reservoir, and the rooms where Ernie and Elise had their first ever dungeon adventure, and the areas where those parties of 20 players used to go romp and the only memorable thing about the session was the number of players involved. Gary suggested in the 'dungeon designing advice' section of OD&D vol. 3 that most of each level, including all of the most heavily-traveled areas, should be mostly mundane and/or empty, with all of the really interesting stuff tucked away in remote or hard-to-access areas. I assume since he was giving this advice that this is the design-scheme he used on GC, and am therefore hoping that he's stuck with something like it for the 'redesigned' Castle Zagyg and not given too much into the temptation to trim out most of that mundane stuff and just leave the highlights because 'that's what people want to see.' Foster, if you read Gary's posts on Dragonsfoot that's exactly what he's aiming at. He's said on multiple occasions that most of the monsters inhabiting the Castle dungeons are tucked away in hard-to-find places (because they don't want to be found).
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Post by Falconer on Oct 6, 2004 13:51:38 GMT -5
For me it would be best if it was "reset" so the Nine are still imprisoned there, as is Fraz-urb-luu; Otto and Quij are lower-level foes encountered there, etc. To me this is by far the most interesting and authentic way to go. To make it down there and see "This is where Robilar released the Nine"--boring. Even to run into an older Robilar and Tenser themselves is not needed (though I could put that in myself if I wanted). Regards.
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