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Post by Scott on Aug 19, 2007 13:18:35 GMT -5
Spoiler follow, not that I really think there's a lot of interest around here. I picked this up yesterday, mainly out of curiosity. I heard Robilar played a big part in it. Erik Mona has mentioned that he wanted to correct some of the damage done by the Rary the Trader material, so I wanted to see what was what. Turns out Robilar isn't Robilar. Robilar was trapped in the Greyhawk dungeons and replaced by his evil duplicate Bilarro. The thing that bugs me the most about this adventure is they cram as many classic names as poiible into it. Typical post-Gygax style, it seems like to validate the material, they have to tie it to as much Greyhawk material as they can. Iuz is involved, Iggwilv is involved, Mordenkainen is involved, Riggby is involved, Robilar is involved. Some guy that was at the 1st battle against the ToEE who fought for the good side, but is neutral, ended up as Robilar's henchman and proxy owner of the Green Dragon Inn. Sir Bluto from White Plume Mountain is in there. So much of the later day Greyhawk material is so filled with lame ties to earlier material. The whole set up of the adventure is based on a very lame post-Gygax story. Mordenkainen tricked Robilar, along with Quij and Riggby into freeing Iuz to try yo kill him, but at the last minute Tenser and Bigby teleported in and ruined the plan so Iuz escaped. Iuz has been plotting his revenge. Now Riggby has died of natural causes, so Iuz is speeding up his plan for revenge. Riggby's body is being brought to Greyhawk, which has attracted a whole bunch of people. A ton of clerics of Boccob, and a ton of clerics of St. Cuthbert, because in the post-Gygax era, St. Cuthbert helped Zagyg trap Iuz, and now they suspect that Iuz might try something. As I write this, it seems worse and worse. Enough said I guess.
Scott
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 19, 2007 16:18:44 GMT -5
Wow, they really can't get any good writers no matter who owns the license. Was Greyhawk cursed by Gary?
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 19, 2007 16:25:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the review. I was mildly curious about it. I think the main problem with these writers is that they feel so bound to the "From the Ashes" era, as if they need to reconcile and use all of the soap opera-like story-lines that happened then. Personally, I think they could -- and should -- ignore that material. They don't have to say "that never happened" -- they just shouldn't feel the need to include all of that.
I guess I was hoping/expecting it was going to be an update or expansion on the old "Ruins of Greyhawk" module, with an attempt to give it more of an old school feel as an homage to the Gygax-Kuntz era: lots of maps, new dungeon levels, room detail, some odd areas like maybe underground reservoirs or bas-reliefs, possibly a few magic items or story hooks, riddles, puzzles, interesting or weird encounters, etc. Why do I get my hopes up, for these kinds of things?
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Post by Scott on Aug 19, 2007 16:57:29 GMT -5
The dungeon part is an "update or expansion on the old "Ruins of Greyhawk" module", and does add new levels and conditions. The adventure takes place years after Ruins of Greyhawk, and some of the material is mentioned in the background. The new adventure has the party make several treks into the ruins to specific locations with specific goals in mind. It definately does NOT have an old school feel. I can't even say they got the Robilar part right, since not only do they reveal that it wasn't Robilar that joined with Rary and attacked Tenser's forces, which should have been a good thing, but they erase the fact that the real Robilar became lawful evil by saying that that was all the Robilar duplicate.
Scott
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Post by Scott on Aug 19, 2007 17:05:45 GMT -5
At first I was thinking some of the material might be OK if you changed some of the names to dispel the lame gratuitous Greyhawk name-dropping, and maybe parts are, but I don't think that could help the bulk of the material.
Scott
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Post by Scott on Aug 19, 2007 17:23:24 GMT -5
I have found some positives, or at least positive attempts, in the book:
The attempt to erase the horrible Rary the Traitor material pertaing to Robilar Explaining the end of the Circle of Five Ending the lame Nerull vs. Vaprak plot from the Ruins of Greyhawk adventure Intrigue within the City of Greyhawk. A series of separate, but linked, adventures that take the party through the city and dungeons The inclusion of the old Greyhawk characters might have been cool if it wasn’t so overdone
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Post by Scott on Aug 19, 2007 17:29:05 GMT -5
I can't believe I forgot to mention this. The real pièce de résistance is that at the end of the adventure, the whole castle and ruins are removed from the World of Greyhawk "as if they were never there" and then appear for a time in places like Faerun, Eberron, or Mystara.
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 19, 2007 17:42:52 GMT -5
It almost makes you feel sorry for the poor bastards off the street who want to return to D&D and/or Greyhawk! Unfortunately, I'm still recovering from reading bad D&D writing from the late 80's to give a shit anymore about the people who avoided years and years of D&D disappointments...
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 19, 2007 17:48:04 GMT -5
And I can't believe they would ever "FATE OF ISTUS" something again. But there it is. I'd like to know who the writers are so I can actively avoid them for eternity!
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Post by Scott on Aug 19, 2007 17:54:29 GMT -5
Erik Mona, Jason Bulmahn, and James Jacobs. According to Mona, that last bit was inserted by a WotC editor after the manuscript was turned in.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Aug 20, 2007 0:31:59 GMT -5
I mentioned to Erik Mona in a thread over at ENWorld that I was disappointed that this book (at least from my in-store perusal) didn't contain more of the material/locations we know about from the original Castle -- the Black Reservoir, Great Stone Face, slide to China, etc. -- and his response was that they actually deliberately didn't cover as much material from the original Castle as possible because they know that Gary and Rob are publishing their version(s) and didn't want to step on their toes. While admirable, I suppose, it begs the question of what the point of this book actually is, then -- "we're calling it 'Expedition to Greyhawk Castle' but we've made a conscious effort to have as little of Greyhawk Castle in it as possible." Alrighty then. A fitting end for the last 22 years of "Official Greyhawk"...
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2007 8:12:17 GMT -5
Good to see you posting after almost two years. I do appreciate some of what Erik Mona was trying to do. He did have a big steaming pile to work with, and tried to mold it into something, but when you're starting with a big steaming pile, and are bound by consistency, there's only so much you can do, On top of that, on the initial read, I've not been too impressed with the writing. I'm going to have to read the different sections and consider them in a more modular fashion, and see what bits, if any, stand out. I'm glad they did keep away from the stuff Gary and Rob will be publishing.
Scott
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 20, 2007 10:16:31 GMT -5
Speaking of that, how is that going?
I still have no clue. Is Rob still involved?
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2007 10:18:32 GMT -5
There is no collaboration between the two at present, that I'm aware of. They will each be releasing stuff separately.
Scott
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2007 10:20:37 GMT -5
TLG released a product at Gen Con, at least I think they did, that included the first adventure set in/around the ruins. it deals with the many cave entrances located on the mound the castle is built on.
Scott
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Post by geneweigel on Aug 20, 2007 11:17:44 GMT -5
That would be interesting to look at. I have some very early notes about depth of the dungeons to which I added stuff from the Up On A Soapbox material. Its all so scribbled out on this one page that I can barely make heads or tails out of it! PS: Speaking of broken collaborations, I'm getting a "grave disturbance in the Force" that I may be next in line...
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Post by grodog on Aug 23, 2007 13:42:57 GMT -5
I'm going to have to read the different sections and consider them in a more modular fashion, and see what bits, if any, stand out. That's how I'm going to look at the book: how useful are the encounters as stand-alone, level-independent encounters, since the levels are obviously too small and simple to be "real" CG levels. I'm going to write a review which will include that take, as well as the overall view of the book from a grognardly GH fan, too (so the above "encounter zoom" approach is obviously punting on the book's true intent/purpose). I'm glad they did keep away from the stuff Gary and Rob will be publishing. Ditto!
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Post by grodog on Aug 23, 2007 13:44:59 GMT -5
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Post by Scott on Aug 23, 2007 15:59:13 GMT -5
I have that ordered, but the Trolls are reporting they are out of complete sets after GenCon, so it might be a while.
Scott
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 25, 2007 8:21:37 GMT -5
While admirable, I suppose, it begs the question of what the point of this book actually is, then -- "we're calling it 'Expedition to Greyhawk Castle' but we've made a conscious effort to have as little of Greyhawk Castle in it as possible." Alrighty then. A fitting end for the last 22 years of "Official Greyhawk"... LOL, thanks for the belly laugh. What a joke. Personally, I would loathe the assignment of writing a "Greyhawk Ruins" adventure, because no matter what you write, and even if you try to be as respectful as possible (and I believe Erik is), you still end up with the absurd conclusion: "It's not real Greyhawk... it's Official Greyhawk."
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