foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 476
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Post by foster1941 on Oct 7, 2004 12:37:45 GMT -5
So I was looking through D3 a few days back (for the first time since learning all the behind-the-scenes 'backstory') and noticed the references to Q1 within it. My copy (or at least the one I was looking through) is a pastel 1st or 2nd printing from 1978, so this was well before Sutherland's Q1 was published in 1980. So what's the story here -- had the decision to take this project away from EGG and hand it over to DCS already been made in 1978, or was Gary himself planning to do "Q1" at that point? I was under the impression that the Gygax-Sutherland handover occured after T1 had been published in 1979 (thus the various Lolth-related discrepancies in that module noted in other threads) but that chronology doesn't seem to add up (unless, I suppose, the T1 manuscript had already been turned in very far in advance)? So what's the story here, what am I missing?
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Post by GT on Oct 7, 2004 21:48:13 GMT -5
The G-series was written up before and used at Origins '78 and the D-series continued the adventure at Gen Con 11 9also '78). These were tournament modules which then were released as printed modules. The problem: as no "conclusion" existed from the cons, it was necessary to write one up. Meanwhile, Gary was working on the T-series, and he felt that his idea for an ending for the D-series was too similar to what he had in mind for The Temple of Elemental Evil as it would appear in print. So, yes, by 1978 it was already apparent to Gary that he had to find an alternative. Along came Dave with his idea and--voila!---between the two of them Q-1 was born (although not released til 1980). Unfortunately, due to other corporate concerns, Gary didn't get to finish The Temple as he planned either, and Frank had to assume that duty (without the benefit of knowing of the Elder Elemental God angle... ) ^__^
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Post by Merkholz on Sept 8, 2015 4:45:10 GMT -5
But why keep the elemental forms in the silvery (platinum) egg when defeated in D3? It seems like a sloppy way of changing the story.
Additionally, I wonder how House Eilserve found the EEG if that bloated thing was to be found in the Sunless Sea. Are the PCs supposed to travel along the river (the Svartjet) allt the way to the Sunless Sea? That is a long journey and it passes through a few encounter areas. I do wish someone had found a few notes of these "new and exciting prospects".
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 8, 2015 6:16:50 GMT -5
It seems that Sutherland's dungeon was made for something else like a "13th level" of the standard dungeons being generated by users in the 1970's and it just seemed like a "hot and ready pizza" to throw out there with spidery "drag" put on it as window dressing. The loss of all the finery and nuances of the real Q1 is a nagging beast for anyone who focuses on it. A few years back I was putting focus on a hypothetical D4 and it just pissed me off. I wanted to kick my own ass for a while.  |
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 8, 2015 8:28:47 GMT -5
Digging into the Q1 mystery is unrewarding because there just isn't any satisfying answer to be had. The implication was that the players get exposed to the machinations of Lolth, who was extending her rule not just over the world of the PCs, but over worlds throughout the multiverse. And Q1 lets the players see and interact with these alternate Prime Material worlds. The conclusion (that I guess they are supposed to arrive at): Lolth must be stopped! And so the heroes take the battle to Lolth on her home plane of the Abyss -- presumably to put her down, once and for all!
At least, the is the implication one gets when reading Q1.
But that is a complete redirection and separate campaign plot-arc from the GD series, which was about EEG-worshipping Drow uniting the giants to raid surface-dwellers. The Lolth-worshipping Drow weren't even behind it, and were in fact enemies of the EEG-faction. So, why should the players take their focus off of the EEG and put it on Lolth?!?
Maybe by this point, you were supposed to forget which faction of Drow was behind the giant raids in the first place.
"But -- we must keep dealing out the retaliation!"
Q1 is sort of like invading Iraq in response to the 9/11 attacks.
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Post by Merkholz on Sept 9, 2015 4:11:08 GMT -5
Yeah, it is unsatisfying. I guess the story could work with killing Eclavdra and beating up House Eilserve putting a stop to the giant incursions. While tripping around the Vault the PCs discover that Lolth has invasion plans of her own and must be stopped. Following the drow plot from the Surface then becomes the bread Crumb trail that leads the PCs to the true threat. That setup seems a little unfulfilling, though. Last time a had a GDQ Campaign I gave my players the satisfaction of having a big, drag-out fight with the entire Eilserve compound - they felt that that was a satisfying end to the trail that they had been following since the start. After destroying the secret Temple of the Eye of the Elder Elemental God they felt that there work was done. It was pure greed and curiosity that later drove them to the Fane.
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Post by Scott on Sept 9, 2015 7:50:24 GMT -5
This was a sore spot for EGG too. I'd like to run the GD series one day and play the end out using the info Gary provided about how he saw things.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 10, 2015 9:54:08 GMT -5
It definitely would have been something to replay if the D&D cartoon was any clue as to its structure i.e. a town with secret doors that lead to "demonwebs" over bottomless pits. |
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Post by Scott on Sept 13, 2015 6:43:03 GMT -5
I'll have to re-watch that episode. See if I can find any inspiration there.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 13, 2015 23:06:40 GMT -5
Heh its no lost gem in fact its pretty bland.
In general the cartoon seems like it was put together by people who couldn't give a shit what D&D was about and just used the reference books as some kind of color guide and/or screenplay lexicon to riff off in the most superficial of ways. That episode in particular has a troll plodding by like its a flaky hobo in a rubber mask and humanoids hanging out with troglodytes in a tavern ala Star Wars. So no golden Lolth material here for sure.
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Post by Scott on Sept 14, 2015 6:46:55 GMT -5
For the most part the series was pretty bad. It wasn't rooted enough in D&D. But it started getting better right before it ended.
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Post by GRWelsh on Sept 14, 2015 19:03:59 GMT -5
The 'kiddiness' of the D&D cartoon was off-putting (Uni) but it had some cool moments (skeleton warrior).
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Post by grodog on Sept 15, 2015 14:16:53 GMT -5
Yeah, it is unsatisfying. I guess the story could work with killing Eclavdra and beating up House Eilserve putting a stop to the giant incursions. While tripping around the Vault the PCs discover that Lolth has invasion plans of her own and must be stopped. Following the drow plot from the Surface then becomes the bread Crumb trail that leads the PCs to the true threat. That setup seems a little unfulfilling, though. Agreed. Merric Blackman wrote a nice twist on this over on Canonfire! @ www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=165I like his take, in part because it not only reconciles Q1 with the G-D modules, but it leverages those inconsistencies to Eclavdra's advantage. YMMV, of course Allan. |
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