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Post by Scott on Sept 11, 2016 20:55:55 GMT -5
G1 is set up to almost be too easy for a good/lucky party, but if you blow it it turns into a slog. Regardless the difficulty level jump to G2 is huge, probably the biggest in the series.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 11, 2016 20:55:59 GMT -5
Yes, the EEG is no secret. Evlavdra's house rejected Lolth after her clerics refused to back her attempts to create a single monarch of the vault. I don't think it's a secret that the Eilservs and the Tomtors <sp> follow the EEG. There isn't open hostilities, but I could see the clerics or the other noble houses helping the party, whether the party knows it or not. Yeah, its no secret I'm saying specifically it might have been a spectacle battle like the Iuz/Cuthbert with both stats in the back. I also assume that the way Gary answered the question of whether it was a spider shaped dungeon with a negative is because that it was not a spider themed map for "demon web" so I would lose the world conquest angle that is misplaced EEG notions on Sutherland's part and factor in the G3 EEG elements as a preview. One way to approach is to say the demonweb is something entirely Gygaxian and not some bathtub mat. Gygaxian in this case means its multi-tiered (levels) and its utilitarian so the idea of a web has to be in there instead of just passages to other worlds I would say that Lolth has the EEG itself in captivity in a "web" and thats whats tying her to the Elemental evil cult (Lareth of T1, etc). I'm imagining this might be what he had in mind: Something like the finale of ISLE OF THE APE with pitfalls that revolve around lies and the specificity of it revolving around the 4 items that were in Lolth's "sivery egg wallet". For each item is a platonic solid with ancient Greek element ties so each one is a key to the lock which keeps the EEG locked up. Each area is: Iron Pyramid - 4 sides - the Fire level Cube of pale Blue Crystal - 6 sides - the Earth level Bronze Star of 8 points - 8 sides - the Air level Silver Sphere - 20 sides - the Water level The center web level is the prison of the EEG
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Post by Scott on Sept 11, 2016 21:02:57 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the EEG idea mutated and grew after the fact, like Iggwilv. But your right, Gary did share some of his ideas with me and it did involve a potential battle royal between Lolth and the EEG.
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Post by Scott on Sept 11, 2016 21:06:33 GMT -5
But it t was all on the prime. The EEG could be released on an island on the dark sea, and if that happened the party would need to summon Lolth, and those two would basically neutralize each other.
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Post by Scott on Sept 11, 2016 21:08:44 GMT -5
The 4 artifacts were involved in the releasing of the EEG somehow.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 11, 2016 21:24:19 GMT -5
I had made a web map to show Gary but it was too late (2008?) and it was half-assed so I tossed it.
10 crisscrossed hallways (20 endpoints) for the first Water level
4 crisscrossed hallways (8 endpoints) for the second Air level.
3 crisscrossed hallways (6 endpoints0 for the third Earth level.
2 crisscrossed hallways (4 endpoints) for the fourth Fire level.
Then the 5th level would be in the center which would be a pocket plane in the ethereal and astral at the same time where his prison would be.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 11, 2016 21:48:58 GMT -5
Yes, the EEG is no secret. Evlavdra's house rejected Lolth after her clerics refused to back her attempts to create a single monarch of the vault. I don't think it's a secret that the Eilservs and the Tomtors <sp> follow the EEG. There isn't open hostilities, but I could see the clerics or the other noble houses helping the party, whether the party knows it or not. Yeah, its no secret I'm saying specifically it might have been a spectacle battle like the Iuz/Cuthbert with both stats in the back. I also assume that the way Gary answered the question of whether it was a spider shaped dungeon with a negative is because that it was not a spider themed map for "demon web" so I would lose the world conquest angle that is misplaced EEG notions on Sutherland's part and factor in the G3 EEG elements as a preview. One way to approach is to say the demonweb is something entirely Gygaxian and not some bathtub mat. Gygaxian in this case means its multi-tiered (levels) and its utilitarian so the idea of a web has to be in there instead of just passages to other worlds I would say that Lolth has the EEG itself in captivity in a "web" and thats whats tying her to the Elemental evil cult (Lareth of T1, etc). I'm imagining this might be what he had in mind: Something like the finale of ISLE OF THE APE with pitfalls that revolve around lies and the specificity of it revolving around the 4 items that were in Lolth's "sivery egg wallet". For each item is a platonic solid with ancient Greek element ties so each one is a key to the lock which keeps the EEG locked up. Each area is: Iron Pyramid - 4 sides - the Fire level Cube of pale Blue Crystal - 6 sides - the Earth level Bronze Star of 8 points - 8 sides - the Air level Silver Sphere - 20 sides - the Water level The center web level is the prison of the EEG
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 11, 2016 22:01:18 GMT -5
So how are you envisioning the multi tiered idea connectivity of the elements tiers and their relationship to lolths web tier imprisoning the EEG? The fire key accesses the iron pyramid tier level and then the other keys keep working to lead sequentially towards center and/or center and down to lolths asrtral/ethereal web tier? Would EEG be imprisoned in astral/ethereal pocket plane or prime material Greyhawk accessed via lolths astral/ethereal demon web (such as gate to EEG prison in undiscovered TOEE tier, or something else?
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 11, 2016 22:53:36 GMT -5
I would think that in general it is not straightforward and there are lots of wrong turns and maybe no way to get back like a web analogy. Well, no way to get back routinely anyway.
The real clincher would be what would be the new monsters? I don't see what was presented being a D&D lineup of monsters.
I discussed with Gary the TALES fFROM THE CRYPT era type comics and there were many that weren't "EC brand" that all went down the shitter when the comics code came out. Gary had admitted at least to the mid-50's when he quit comics and those were his comics of choice.
I've read a lot of these things and there are recurring themes:
1) werespiders (arms ripping through shirt, eyes bulge, mandibles next to teeth, etc.) 2) races of half-spiders (spider faces usually), and 3) black widow monster queens or vampire like seductresses.
In LEJENDARY ADVENTURES the "widowblack" monster seems to be based on one of these but an interesting monster is the "void spider" which seems like it might have been a greater phase spider that would have appeared in Q1
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 11, 2016 22:59:08 GMT -5
I think if you look at it the SHRINE OF THE KUO-TOA module is an even bigger incongruent part of the search for a logical "payback" flow in the series because "Blib" hates the Drow and wants them dead in general. The major flaw of Q1 is that it should have been written by Gygax for continuance as Q1 has that "A", "I" or even "C" series feel which is a general "user end" feel rather than that "actual product" feel that lets say "B2" and the "S" series (with exception of S2). If the logical flow of it is all giants are chaotic raiders spurred on by underground dwellers who are chaotic conquerors then who is going to going to sort through all this shit for a Hollywood ending? The answer is who cares? Some user end campaigns who played out the drow to a nub as a player race? The only thing missing was a "D&D-ier" setting for Lolth's realm. We have this elaborate series encounters for a specific place in the real world and limited encounters for entire worlds and dumb monster grabs from the BIG BOOK OF EXOTIC ARACHNIDS and a spider centaur.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 11, 2016 23:25:47 GMT -5
So do you envision that blib could be spurring on the kuo toans to penetrate the elemental tiers to eventually free the EEG in order to disrupt Drow power under Lolth? Perhaps PCs adventuring out to the sunless sea and into the elemental tiers there would meet up with a powerful kuo toan faction that has penetrated the water tier and has enlisted other aid to attempt penetration of the air tier next? Or maybe the kuo toan faction is being manipulated by a greater power - aboleth or kraken? Would there be an illithid faction at work here as well, and if so, what would be the purposes of that faction? Maybe an illithid faction has gotten further into the elemental tiers or even penetrated into the astral/ethereal demon web for some alien prophetic purposes and/or to guard against the release of the chaotic primordial EEG? Did Lolth enlist the aid of the illithids or trick them into crafting an alien structured prison for the EEG in the first place? So much potential here for fantastic adventuring campaign locale that far surpasses The Q1 content!
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 12, 2016 7:06:01 GMT -5
Well, the Kraken is definitely a Gary preference but the aboleth, while Gary did like adopting FIEND FOLIO (1981) monsters to promote the UK book I couldn't imagine him using aboleth for anything considering they came from a module elsewhere I1 DWELLERS OF THE FORBIDDEN CITY (1981) placed on the other side of GH. They were adopted after Gary was gone into QUEEN OF THE SPIDERS, the 1986 "supermodule" which reinterpreted the G, D and Q series to reflect a better view of the current staff, in the back it says aboleth have lands but thats Grubb and Cook (2 perpetrators of some of the worst D&D material under Lorraine Williams T$R. They might have been okay under Gary but once he was gone they all went bananas.) I call them "Zeboleths" and don't use them at all but in Gary's phone conversation about "Unoerth" the area under the World of Greyhawk that was going to have a map in his version of Second Edition Greyhawk (no Sargent either! Heh!), when we were talking about Saint Trowbane, he hinted that under Greyhawk there were different denizens than under the G series and he never mentioned aboleths in the "G area" but he did mention kraken so they must have migrated in on the kuo-toan road. Of course, if you asked Gary about D&D too much he'd break down so I didn't get too far.
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Post by geneweigel on Sept 12, 2016 7:17:33 GMT -5
I started preliminary work on a city for a hypothetical "D4" where I was going to introduce my version of "the trow" but I got so distracted by other stuff. I'm still working on a better hobbit after 20 years!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:07:17 GMT -5
Well, the Kraken is definitely a Gary preference but the aboleth, while Gary did like adopting FIEND FOLIO (1981) monsters to promote the UK book I couldn't imagine him using aboleth for anything considering they came from a module elsewhere I1 DWELLERS OF THE FORBIDDEN CITY (1981) placed on the other side of GH. They were adopted after Gary was gone into QUEEN OF THE SPIDERS, the 1986 "supermodule" which reinterpreted the G, D and Q series to reflect a better view of the current staff, in the back it says aboleth have lands but thats Grubb and Cook (2 perpetrators of some of the worst D&D material under Lorraine Williams T$R. They might have been okay under Gary but once he was gone they all went bananas.) I call them "Zeboleths" and don't use them at all but in Gary's phone conversation about "Unoerth" the area under the World of Greyhawk that was going to have a map in his version of Second Edition Greyhawk (no Sargent either! Heh!), when we were talking about Saint Trowbane, he hinted that under Greyhawk there were different denizens than under the G series and he never mentioned aboleths in the "G area" but he did mention kraken so they must have migrated in on the kuo-toan road. Of course, if you asked Gary about D&D too much he'd break down so I didn't get too far.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:13:13 GMT -5
I've imagined kraken must be present in the Nyr Dyv - present under Greyhawk castle would be cool as well!
Point well taken regarding the 'zeboleth'. I like the kraken menace idea in the sunless sea and/or water tier/level en route to EEG's prison.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:17:31 GMT -5
I started preliminary work on a city for a hypothetical "D4" where I was going to introduce my version of "the trow" but I got so distracted by other stuff. I'm still working on a better hobbit after 20 years!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:24:10 GMT -5
So what what kind of creepy vile humanoid would the 'trow' be - a dark elven troglodyte menace in a sunless sea city that holds a gate to the water tier?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:34:02 GMT -5
Or would 'trow' instead be a dark elven troll humanoid type?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:36:51 GMT -5
I started preliminary work on a city for a hypothetical "D4" where I was going to introduce my version of "the trow" but I got so distracted by other stuff. I'm still working on a better hobbit after 20 years!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Sept 12, 2016 8:51:55 GMT -5
I would love developed D4 and beyond campaign adventures locales, as well as unoerth development expansion with various planar and alt-prime material worlds gates etc.!
In Greyhawk, the pervasive rotten honeycombs of evil denizens have to be relentlessly inextinguishable, and that means constant new evil monsters and humanoids development to antagonize campaigning PCs!
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