Vault of the Drow

[Falconer]

Could anyone possibly provide detailed differences between the mono and color cover editions of D3? I seem to recall hearing that there were some very difficult encounters or traps in the mono version that were culled from the color version, which is unfortunately the one I own. Much appreciated. Thanks!

[geneweigel]

There's more hand-holding map detail regarding continued play in the other modules which they did to center the maps (originally at the end) and to include a full page Lolth looking awful leggy as well.

The svirfneblin image wasn't included and the encounter on page 21 area 5 reads "ghosts" in my color PDf (this is the only one that I never had the redo) but in my hardcopy original it reads "ghasts".

But I don't see any trap variance unless they're talking about the QUEEN OF SPIDERS supermodule.

[GT]

Ditto---I have all three, and only the "supermodule" really had any content differences.

[Scott]

I have never had a copy of the mono version of this. Were the Q1 references in there?

[GRWelsh]

Yes, the Q1 references are in the mono version.

[GRWelsh]

As far as I can tell, the only differences between the 1978 monochrome version and the 1980 color version are:

- Different/additional illustrations and layout changes
- Maps in back in 1978 version and maps in center in 1980 version
- Change to Map VIII: the 1978 version shows a circular ring-like area in the center -- the garden and grotto, presumably -- and the 1980 version of the map doesn't show this detail
- 1978 version on p. 2 has text that begins "Complete information on the Drow is given in MODULE G3..." which is edited out of the 1980 version presumably because the full Drow monster description was added to the back of the module (the Drow monster description isn't in the 1978 version, even though a lot of the others are, such as Kuo-Toa, Deep Gnome, etc).

I'll take a closer look at the encounters and traps, to see if I can find any differences.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

I never had color version, only monochrome versions throughout GD series.

[geneweigel]

Every instance of "ghost" is really "ghast" there are no ghosts in the pink D3

[geneweigel]

There are quite a few instances of this especially the random encounters.

[Scott]

An out of control spell checker during the conversion to pdf

[Scott]

After reading through the GD series again, there really isn't a reason for Q1, or some EEG related finale. You could throw something in, but knocking the snot out of Eclavdra's house should be enough to end the threat to the surface world. Eclavdra wanted to be queen of Erelhie Cinlu, that was what the whole thing was about. The attacks on the surface were to gain resources to help her achieve her ultimate goal of becoming monarch of the Vault. No need to even mess with Lolth's followers. No mention of the EEG motivating this, or being imprisoned and being released. Break the Eclavdra faction, and the drow go back to being the same drow they've been for the last 10,000 years.

[GRWelsh]

We've talked about this before, and I agree. When I was a kid, I didn't really question the shift. The assumed goal of the players throughout the series simply seems to be "Here are some really evil guys, go kill them." In the G series the players' goal is to strike back against the giants, and they find out the Drow are behind the giant conspiracy... but then in the D series the assumption shifts to: the players want to -- or have the mission to -- pursue and even 'wipe out' the Dark Elves in their homeland -- not just to punish those directly responsible for the giant conspiracy. Now that the Drow are known about, they're too great a threat to just ignore, as they could try this sort of thing again and pop up anywhere. It's also not clear how the players would know that only Eclavdra/House Eilservs is responsible for the giant conspiracy, and the other Drow and Lolth have nothing to do with it -- or wouldn't try something similar again.

"But... I had nothing to do with the evil behind the giant conspiracy!" Lolth said.
"Yeah, well... You're evil, too." the paladin said, stabbing her.

[Scott]

A party that doesn't fireball first and ask questions later should be able to figure it out. Divination magic should also help them figure it out. Attacking the drow as a whole would be suicide. An attack on Lolth will actually leave those that started all the trouble in a better position. There's a section in the description of the rakes that describes how they will Give the party information and show them around the city, and may even help them.

[GRWelsh]

You could detail the grounds and compound of the noble House Eilservs, and make that the grand finale of the series. Do it in a Gygaxian style, similar to, but also different from, the Fane of Lolth.

[geneweigel]

I think if you look at it the SHRINE OF THE KUO-TOA module is an even bigger incongruent part of the search for a logical "payback" flow in the series because "Blib" hates the Drow and wants them dead in general.

The major flaw of Q1 is that it should have been written by Gygax for continuance as Q1 has that "A", "I" or even "C" series feel which is a general "user end" feel rather than that "actual product" feel that lets say "B2" and the "S" series (with exception of S2).

If the logical flow of it is all giants are chaotic raiders spurred on by underground dwellers who are chaotic conquerors then who is going to going to sort through all this shit for a Hollywood ending? The answer is who cares? Some user end campaigns who played out the drow to a nub as a player race?

The only thing missing was a "D&D-ier" setting for Lolth's realm. We have this elaborate series encounters for a specific place in the real world and limited encounters for entire worlds and dumb monster grabs from the BIG BOOK OF EXOTIC ARACHNIDS and a spider centaur.

[GRWelsh]

I've played in and DMed the G modules more than once. But I've never played in or DMed the entire G and D series to a 'conclusion.' I'd be curious to hear how it went for others, not counting one-off or tournament style scenarios. Do most parties make a bee-line from Snurre's dungeons to the Vault? What do most of them do when they get to the Vault, other than have a TPK? I'd always imagined a narrative that followed along with the described areas...

If EGG had written Q1 it would have certainly been "D&D-ier" as far as getting his idea of a planar lair/adventure. I actually like Q1, as it is, just not as a culmination of the G-D series. I like the alternate Prime Material stuff in Q1, just not the way the the Abyssal lair of Lolth was handled.

[geneweigel]

Rereading with a fresh view D1's drow encounter mentions that Lolth is up to date on all the giant nonsense in D1:

If for any reason
the Drow are seriously threatened, she will
attempt to save herself by using her magical cloak to change into
a lurker above and fly off without notice or being noticed, for she
is charged with reporting to the Fane any significant event which
transpires after the fall of Snurre, i.e. the ruin of Eclavdra’s plans,
for the latter is an opponent of the Fane.

This is the first mention of "Lolth" as well:

If the commanders are slain and the bodies carefully searched,
the following small brooches will be discovered: on the male
magic-user, a small brass wand (inscribed in Drow runes,
ALEVAL); on the female curate a small blue-black mace
inscribed DESPANA; on the person of Vlondril (hidden in her
hair) is a golden spider pin with engraved runes which say in
Drowic, LOLTH, DEATH QUEEN MOTHER.

I think the ideal Q1 was an EEG and Lolth combo module with perhaps the Cuthbert/Iuz altercation being Lolth and the EEG. The too similar sketched out "rough" was DEFINITELY not the maps, he told me that in person, so it was the context of TOEE.

[Scott]

Yes, the EEG is no secret. Evlavdra's house rejected Lolth after her clerics refused to back her attempts to create a single monarch of the vault. I don't think it's a secret that the Eilservs and the Tomtors <sp> follow the EEG. There isn't open hostilities, but I could see the clerics or the other noble houses helping the party, whether the party knows it or not.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Sept 11, 2016 14:21:57 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

I've played in and DMed the G modules more than once. But I've never played in or DMed the entire G and D series to a 'conclusion.' I'd be curious to hear how it went for others, not counting one-off or tournament style scenarios. Do most parties make a bee-line from Snurre's dungeons to the Vault? What do most of them do when they get to the Vault, other than have a TPK? I'd always imagined a narrative that followed along with the described areas...

If EGG had written Q1 it would have certainly been "D&D-ier" as far as getting his idea of a planar lair/adventure. I actually like Q1, as it is, just not as a culmination of the G-D series. I like the alternate Prime Material stuff in Q1, just not the way the the Abyssal lair of Lolth was handled.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Yeah, my DM experience was TPK Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. It was too much hack n slash approach by the PCs, and the Giants series is increasingly unforgiving for parties trying to bull run the Giants!