Boarderlands expansions

[Axe Mental]

Has there been any fleshing out of the Keep of the Borderlands (caves or interesting areas), perhaps in an early dragon mag, or even a 2E module?

[grodog]

There's Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (which is only so-so IMO), and the Kenzer & Co version "Little Keep on the Borderlands" (which is actually pretty good).

I don't know of any Gygax-penned expansions to the original B2, though....

[Axe Mental]

Do you know what these flesh out, or is it just new stuff unrelated to the original (except for in name).

Thanks

[Scott]

Return to... was a sequel, set years later. The Hackmaster version is a reworking and expansion of the original.
Scott

[Falconer]

I wouldn't look at "Return" or "Little", personally. It's the very genius of the original B2 just how easy it is for the DM to add to it and flesh it out himself. Seriously, I am more ad more convinced that B2 is THE best module ever written, as written. It's just detailed exactly as much as it needs to be, and great fuel for the imagination.

Personally, I did get both of them and tried to look at them a couple of times; I couldn't handle the sucky 2e flavor of the one and the over-detail of the other. Actually, in "Little" the maps are completely different, so it's not like you can just plug in sections that you like directly.

I'll sell them to you if you want them, though. ;-)

Rather, I suggest getting B1 In Search of the Unknown by Mike Carr (one of Dave Arneson's original campaigners) (I'd get the original monochrome cover version, 1st-2nd printing) and plugging that in. I'm doing that now. The feel is very compatible and the connection is smooth. Regards.

[geneweigel]

I think there could be a more detailed module that rocks but I don't think that its ever been done.

It would have to adhere to the B2 mentality down to the dust on the floor.

A fruitless and Quixotic quest?

Perhaps...

But nevertheless:

It must be done!

[foster1941]

Isn't this what T1-2 was supposed to be -- a complete and self-sufficient 'mini-campaign' (town, wilderness, dungeon) only with all the details filled in as opposed to being left deliberately vague (and thus beginner-friendly, and a DM-pedagogic tool) in B2. T1 lives up to its end of the bargain -- Hommlet is essentially comparable to The Keep, only with a lot more specific detail. Alas T2 doesn't, but I think that's mostly due to the circumstances of its publication. I'd also nominate Necropolis (as far as providing a complete and self-contained mini-campaign that captures all of the essential elements of the game -- obviously it's not appropriate as an introduction/teaching tool for novice players and DMs!).

[geneweigel]

Yes, but the problem with Hommlet is that it is still a...er... a "Hommlet" in its outlook far shorter than even the keep in outlook in some ways.

What has been missing from all our lives is a slice of fantastic commerce and industry which could only be supplied by the truly civilized area of a kingdom or city in scale.

All cities in D&D are portrayed as being magically naive and whatever amazing accoutrements they do have seem to be aquired by luck or circumstance rather than invention because of the grandfathered-in hostile takeover alumni of lazy rats never bothered to figure out how magic items are constructed in the first place!

[Falconer]

My problem with T1-4 is the lack of wilderness detail between Hommlet, the Moathouse, Nulb, and the Temple. It's just "you follow the path, eventually arriving at..." in each case.

B2 does it well. There are not TOO many interesting things between the Keep and the Caves, but there are enough that the PCs feel like they have a choice where to go and there are always more things to do. Plus, you can have better ambushes and chases and what-not.

I did occasionally have encounters between Nulb and the Temple, but when the site of the encounter does not exist on any map, it feels less real and more fabricated for its own sake.

The disadvantages of the keep are that it is so totally lawful (and small) that you can't really have a Thieves' Guild, nighttime assassinations, etc; and that as an enclosed space there can't be much in the way of commercial activity.

Though, to be fair, I often found Nulb to be a /far/ more interesting a place than Hommlet. There's commerce on the river, there can easily be a fledgling Thieves' Guild (that can oppose the Temple Brigands), etc.

This time around, I'm having the Keep taken over by a (secretly) evil Castellan in kahoots with one of the Orc tribes; and the guards a bunch of complacent ninkompoops. So I have had assassination attempts on the PCs and all sorts of unlawful activity. The PCs are also involved in mercantile efforts and are renting one of the shops. It's working pretty well. Regards.

[Axe Mental]

Thats too bad about the 2 sequals. God I hate bad sequals, they somehow manage to tarnish the original. Of course, probably no one would have looked twice at them if they didn't include Keep of the Borderlands in their titles.

Oh, by the way our group got waisted in B2 this past weekend. The druid survived that is, kept himself in the back with his charmed lizard man. He made a ton robbing our dead bodies of magic.

[GT]

I don't think that Gary would have intended a printed expansion of any sort--it was simply an introductory module that combined town/outdoor/underground adventure all into one simple yet "elegant" (can I steal that phrase from the 3E-ers?) setting and encouraged the DM to use his creativity and intuition for the rest. However, if you guys want more, I'll compare notes with Scott on the Cave of the Unknown as we seem to have gone a similar direction, and maybe we can post something here (maybe even get input from Gary after we finish...?)