Multiple attacks against spell caster

[Axe Mental]

This was cut from Gene's site Bow vs. Spell Thread
I hope it's o.k. to put this here, it seemed like the correct place, if not please move.


SCOTT WROTE:

Here's Gary's answer about multiple attack routines.

Originally Posted by ScottGLXIX
Greetings Colonel, I have a follow up to the spell casting and initiative question you answered above. When attacking a spell caster, the DMG gives two methods for determing if the attack or the spell occur first, either the segment indicated by the initiative roll, or a method based on speed factor. What about in situations where the attacker has multiple attack routines, like an archer, or a fighter with two attacks? Will the first attack occur first regardless of casting time, or does the spell caster have the normal chance of getting his spell off before the first attack occurs?
Scott


Hi Scott

A spell-casted loosing a one-segment spell such as magic missile is pretty hard to stop. All of my mage PCs have spells of one segment casting time for tight situations,

The physical attack must occur on the segment before a spell is cast to disrupt it--unless concentration is required to keep the spell going.
Multiple attacks don't matter, as the first happens on the segment of the round indicated, then another follows thereafter. So if the first of multiple attacks occurs before the spell is cast, and it hits, that's the one that matters most. Of course the second attack might be even more important, such as one that kills the spell-caster...

Cheers,
Gary

[ska]

I believe the archer attacking a MU will need to win initiative to begin his 2 arrow attack sequence. If the MU wins initiative he will always go before the archer (unless the archer is high enough level for multiple attacks)

It appears from EGG's response a fighter with multiple attacks due to high level would always strike on segment 1, so if a MU wins initiative the fighter will strike simultaneously with any 1segment spell being cast.

[Scott]

A bow with multiple attacks is treated the same as any other weapon with multiple attack routines, except initiative can be modified by dex if using a missile weapon.
You compare the initiative result with the casting time, If the casting time is smaller, the spell is cast first.
Weapons with multiple attack routines don't get any special advantage when attacking a spell caster. The initiative roll still determines when the first attack strikes the spell caster.
Scott

[ska]

ScottyG--not sure what you mean when say you compare initiative roll to casting time and lower goes first.
So , an archer rolls a 5 on his initiative (higher being better for init. rolls) and, after beating the MUs roll of a 3 ,who is casting a magic missile, the 5 is compared to the 1segment spell and so the spell goes first?

The above does not seem correct. Are you saying that situations involving a missile using character versus a spellcaster that one only compares the initi. roll to the segments to casts the spell with lower winning? (So why have the high roll win in the initiative roll per the DMG?)

I think if the missile user wins initiative he will always go first (no matter the segments required of the spell). So, if his 5 beats a 2 then an arrow goes off first regardless of the segment casting time of the spell.

Where did you get the initiative roll versus spell casting time formula from?

[Scott]

The initiative result vs casting time comes from the DMG, combine that with Gary's quote from the first post in this thread, aspecially this line: "Multiple attacks don't matter, as the first happens on the segment of the round indicated" and it is clear that having two shots does not automatically mean you get one shot before the spell is cast.
The rule doesn't say you use your own initiative result though, you use whichever is appropriate, as it turns out, the spell casters result is always the apropriate result, so you always use the spell caster's initiative result to determine when the attack comes, so in your example the m-u had a 3, the archer a 5, the attack would come on the 3rd segment. If the archer had the 3 and the magic-user had the 5, the 1st shot would still come on the m-u's result, this time the 5.
Scott

[ska at work]

ScottyG---thanks for the response.
I want to see if I am getting this correct.
Whenever a spellcaster versus archer scenerio if the archer wins initiative than no questions: the archer will go first no matter what. (Say archer rolls a 5 and MU a 3)....or is this not correct? Instead would one look at it that the first arrow will be launched on segment 3 against the MU? If this is so, why does the archer ever roll initiative? Shouldn't the MU than just declare what spell he is going to cast and then hope he rolls high?

As I am typing and re-reading what you wrote I think it is becoming clearer to me. (I hope). If a MU and archer face off (no surprise) only the MU need roll his initiative and he will still want to roll high, as this will give him more time to get a spell off. I think this feels strange because insteadof the archer rolling to see when he goes in the round the MU's roll determines when the archer will get to go. Not like the usual high roll wins scenerio.

Thanks in advance for any input.

[Scott]

Guest-ska said:

ScottyG---thanks for the response.
I want to see if I am getting this correct.
Whenever a spellcaster versus archer scenerio if the archer wins initiative than no questions: the archer will go first no matter what. (Say archer rolls a 5 and MU a 3)....or is this not correct? Instead would one look at it that the first arrow will be launched on segment 3 against the MU? If this is so, why does the archer ever roll initiative? Shouldn't the MU than just declare what spell he is going to cast and then hope he rolls high?

As I am typing and re-reading what you wrote I think it is becoming clearer to me. (I hope). If a MU and archer face off (no surprise) only the MU need roll his initiative and he will still want to roll high, as this will give him more time to get a spell off. I think this feels strange because insteadof the archer rolling to see when he goes in the round the MU's roll determines when the archer will get to go. Not like the usual high roll wins scenerio.

Thanks in advance for any input.

ska, the procedure is the same regardless of who wins initiative. The only instances where the archer will automatically get his first shot first is if you use specialization, or if the archer has a dex adjustment that will bring the initiative result to zero or lower.
If it was just the archer and the spell caster, the archer really wouldn't need to roll.
It would be less confusing if low roll one initiative, then everybody could just use their own result.
Scott

[ska]

ok---an archer with a Dex giving a +2 to his initiative goes against a MU. Prior to initiative the MU declares he is going to cast charm person (1 seg. spell).

The MU rolls a 2 and this indicates the archer will fire his arrow on segment 2 at the MU, and the MU will get his 1 seg. spell off. But, since this archer has a +2 due to his Dex the archer needs to roll also. The archer rolls a 1 and combined with his +2 gets a negative one if you will, and goes prior to the 1 seg. spell.

I guess what seems strange is having an opponent determine when the archer fires and not the archer. Or if its PC versus PC only the MU PC will need to roll to see if he gets his spell off (unless the archer PC has a dex bonus. Then I suppose he will need to roll to see if he achieves a zero or a negative number)

Or, of course, if its spellcaster versus archer just let the archer roll initiative and compare that number to the spell segments (using dex. modification if applicable). I think this leads to the same result.

[Scott]

ska said:

ok---an archer with a Dex giving a +2 to his initiative goes against a MU. Prior to initiative the MU declares he is going to cast charm person (1 seg. spell).

The MU rolls a 2 and this indicates the archer will fire his arrow on segment 2 at the MU, and the MU will get his 1 seg. spell off. But, since this archer has a +2 due to his Dex the archer needs to roll also. The archer rolls a 1 and combined with his +2 gets a negative one if you will, and goes prior to the 1 seg. spell.

I guess what seems strange is having an opponent determine when the archer fires and not the archer. Or if its PC versus PC only the MU PC will need to roll to see if he gets his spell off (unless the archer PC has a dex bonus. Then I suppose he will need to roll to see if he achieves a zero or a negative number)

Or, of course, if its spellcaster versus archer just let the archer roll initiative and compare that number to the spell segments (using dex. modification if applicable). I think this leads to the same result.

Attacks at spell casters don't follow the normal initiative rules. Usually exactly when an attack occurs in the round isn't that important, but casting time is different. Usually you just add the dex modifier to your initiative result and if your result is higher, you 'win' initiatve.
Since it would be the spell caster's initiative result that would be determining when the archer's attack would occur, you could just apply the archer's dex modifier to the m-u's initiative result. Except you would subtract it in this case.
Scott

[ska at work]

I think I get it now. Interesting.
Thanks for the clarification Scott.