Do you think a Temple of Orcus could exist openly in the City of greyhawk? He's one of the biggies. There are priests of devils and evil gods who are oligarchs. Graz'zt has a temple in Dyvers. I've always thought he should have one, but I thought I'd todd the idea around.
I thought a priest of Pelor was in there somewhere. I think it would be safe to assume that Asmodeus, Ralishaz, and Nerull have Temples in the city, so would an open temple of Orcus be present? Still no opinions on that.
I'd still be loath to allow a demon price an open/visible/freely accessible temple in even a free city/neutral city like Greyhawk. I would also hazard that the temple to Graz'zt in Dyvers isn't in the open either.
I could see temples to Nerull, to placate him, etc., perhaps, but I'd lump Asmodeus with Graz'zt. If you want such a temple, perhaps place it in the sewers, or outside the city limits in its own dungeon, or somesuch? Have you checked out Tomb of Abysthor or Rappan Athuk---both have some interesting-ish temples to Orcus that could potentially be lifted out for use in/around Greyhawk City.
I think this is a question best asked directly to Gary. He mentioned that there were all these liberties throughout the city which separates certain areas from the jurisdiction of the Watch. This could fall under the same in regards to the devil priest's temple, the Nerull temple or a potential Orcus temple. The concept of the "free city" means no overlord represented by the broken chain over the castle and gives freedom to the lords of the city not to the populace.
It's hard to imagine how a directorship of a major city can include clerics of Asmodeus, Ralishaz, Nerull, Heironeous, and Pelor holding council in the same room... and being civil to each other. It almost seems comical.
"What should we do about the burgeoning problem of the poor?" Phildorf Gelbbeak harrumphed, slapping his bejewelled hand on the great council table. "They purchase nothing, and seem to accomplish litte more than to clutter up alleys."
"Let's gas them," Archdeacon Elohidus said.
High priests Cogruen and Benrai gasped in horror. Arendil and Matragia snickered.
"Just kidding," Elohidus shrugged. "That's not very productive. Let's gather them all together, and make them pick up garbage. They must be properly motivated, so I propose we chain the poor, and give every man of the watch a whip, to egg on the laggards."
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2007 20:20:55 GMT -5 by GRWelsh
Post by geneweigel on Jul 19, 2007 12:09:54 GMT -5
All joking aside, it is hard to grasp alignment policy in regards to clerics interacting in this manner but I believe that things such as this would've been elaborated on if TSR remained in more than just name only. In regards to GHC, in general, one has to work with very little and then your own assumptions hence the way it was done for 2e.
What I can say from what I gathered originally (about 2 years after I read the 83 boxed set) was the the arrow on the alignment map shows that all alignments are represented equally in the city. The novel has clerics as oligarchs and Gary said (to me personally when I addressed the city's alignment matter) that the other clerics (of various gods and alignments) are there in lesser roles in the government. He also added that as time passes, other clerics would fill the oligarch position.
In regards to commoners and clerics, don't forget that you're not dealing with much religious conversion in a polytheistic world. Your dealing with a land of choice for the privileged only (freemen) and those that align themselves with good are good, and those who follow one way most likely pass it on to the next generation. "Good" in AD&D only protects the "right minded". Going around and converting peasantry would probably seen as a major threat in any polytheistic fantasy country.
Good points Gene. I was also rethinking my initial position a little bit, too, in light of thinking about pantheonic worship vs. single-god worship: if Orcus is a part of the X pantheon (or Asmoedus, or Graz'zt, or Nerull, or whoever), then it may well be very appropriate to have temples to such deities in the open: you dare not offend any of the gods---neither the one who's temple you won't build, nor the others by showing that you can ignore any god, since they all have a role in the pantheon.
In light of that paradigm, I think it's quite viable to have open temples to evil gods, since all gods must be honored in their due time (vs. the peoples of Oerth honoring just one god, which is applying a rather monotheistic view to what is likely a much more broad basis for worship. Thoughts?
And, FWIW, I have an open Temple to Nerull in my own city of Windgate, which lies is in Oerth's sister-plane/sister-world of Mendenein (my homebrew setting).
Post by geneweigel on Jul 20, 2007 20:32:22 GMT -5
I've always played GHC* as rotten first and work my way out from there.
*I no longer use World of Greyhawk at all as well actually. I'm fleshing out a world that is based on my original campaign that I later "just used Greyhawk" to fill in the gaps. My original races that I imagined from whole cloth which are depicted all over my old sketch books were discarded to "fit in" with mainstream AD&D play. Plus , I'm using this old campaign as the hub of the "Gene Weigel world" which will be tied into adventures that I've been working on for some time (some of the details of which I just discussed with GT on the phone today ).
Allan, I have set Rappan Athuk in my Greyhawk campaign. It's the main temple where the veneer of a respectable religion are dropped. Even though they are not trusted by many, the evil temples located in urban settings try to present an air of legitimacy.
I think the point of all of the contending factions in the oligarchy of Greyhawk is to attempt to maintain a more or less Neutral outlook for the city. I think Asmodeus, being lawful and therefore in some ways more predictable, is an easier sell than Orcus, however... The final say is in the hands of Nerof, but he gets to consider multiple points of view---and the citizens of Greyhawk were certainly of multiple points of view!
“A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!” —J.R.R. Tolkien