D3 Update

[Scott]

I am getting an error when I try to open my original Adventure Log thread. The party defeated Lolth and wiped out the drow in the Temple last night. Actually it was a running battle that took most of three sessions. They lost some NPCs, when through a bunch of summoned. monsters, used up a bunch of charges on magic items, the party is older now from the multiple haste spells they used, and without the Lanthorn they still could not have done it. Last night's session ended with the defeat of the high priestess. We didn't even get into searching the place yet. Even more important than the Lanthorn may have been Plasolder's ring of free action, with all the hold person spells being cast.

[grodog]

Looking forward to the full write-up when you get a chance, Scott!

Allan.

[Scott]

As I said in the Fudging Rolls thread, the Lolth encounter was anti-climactic, but thinking about 1E play at this level, it’s pretty much how most encounters will end: a missed save and it’s over. The party made their way down the webbed corridor to Lolth’s lair. She surprised the party, dropped in an NPC drow, and killed him instantly. She then summoned a type I demon that the party dispatched quickly. The party then paralyzed Lolth with the Lanthorn, from range, so her magic resistance and saving throw applied, but she failed them both.

[Scott]

This was another encounter where the ring of free action was critical. Having Plasolder able to cut his way through the webs without getting stuck made a big difference.

[Scott]

After that the party started making its way up the Temple. On the second level the encountered some guards in the common area. They called for reinforcements and wave after wave of drow fighters and clerics swarmed the party. The party realized that they were in danger of being overrun and just unleashed everything they had. The fighters were hasted. Even though the magic resistance meant about half the time, or less, the spells would have no effect, they were casing lightning bolted, firing wands, etc. At close range there is no save against the Lanthorn’s effects. The party globbed a few drow with the Viscous Glob wand the took from a drow earlier. At one point the high priestess tried to run, but the party prevented her escape with a wall of force. I gave her a magic resistance check, and she failed it. There was a lot of dispel magics in both directions. Many potions the party was carrying were ruined. Again it was the free action and the Lanthorn that made the difference.

[Scott]

Hasted fighters at this level attack at 3 attacks a round, so even with the drow’s good AC, the party was pretty successful in melee.
With the Lanthorn I usually require a periodic check to resist its insanity effect, and using it can cause a check. I did not check yet, but with all the use, Ember will probably be overtaken by the effects.
In addition to being huge assets, the Lanthorn and the ring of free action have also been some of the biggest threats the party has faced.
When the insanity takes over the Lanthorn can be a powerful weapon against the party, and Plasolder has been charmed/dominated once or twice, and the free action means neutralizing him quickly becomes much more difficult.

[GRWelsh]

What happened after they paralyzed Lolth?

I was wondering if god-level beings should be house-ruled to be immune to certain magics similar to how undead are unaffected by certain forms of attack like poison, sleep, and hold.

[Scott]

For a long time I read that D&D broke down at higher levels, and I’m starting to see that. My recent experiences have been that this kind of thing is more the norm than the flukey exception. I haven’t seen too many big boss fights where it’s an epic battle that comes down to a few hit points, etc. Lolth could have pretty easily TPKed the party within a few rounds. Lolth doesn’t do a lot of damage; it’s either a one hit = dead/held, or no real effect. It’s like a quick victory or a TPK are the likely outcomes. Several less epic, but still tough, opponents seem to make the best combat encounters at this level.

[maximus]

Did you play Lolth as a straight up demon lord or use the D&DG/World of Greyhawk additional powers?

[Scott]

I played Lolth as written in the adventure.

[maximus]

Jan 28, 2023 23:06:36 GMT -5 Scott said:

I played Lolth as written in the adventure.

I DM'd D1 - 3 in high school but the party never got to Q1. I always thought Lolth was underpowered, especially, hit points.

[Scott]

I don't think she's underpowered, and she has multiple at will heals that in in effect almost triple or quadruple her hit points, IMO, the encounter is not set up well because she's alone. She can summon help once the combat starts, but giving a party of this level even one or two rounds to concentrate everything on one target gives the party a huge advantage. And a demon lord shouldn't be hanging out anywhere without guards around. Every drow cleric has a squad of guards protecting her, but Lolth is just hanging out alone.
And I made a mistake earlier, the party didn't hold her with the Lanthorn, they trapped her in the Prison of Zagyg.

[maximus]

In the same campaign I made a big mistake playing Iuz without a legion of guards and the party ended up turning him to stone if I remember correctly. Missed his MR roll, then rolled a 1 on his save. Totally DM'd it wrong. Oh well...

[geneweigel]

I just poured over Lolth stats and with early minor variance and later major variance there are 6 classic AD&D versions of Lolth:

1) D3 (1978) uses human weapons and no xp.

2) Q1 (1980) Heavy combat detail. Killing in plane xp.

3) DEI&DEM (1980) Adds lesser god powers and cleric reference. No xp.

4) FIEND FOLIO (1981) No lesser god powers. Xp as Q1.

5) User end freeform using DRAGON MAG #67 (NOV 1982)/WOG Boxed Set (1983) inferred "new" divine Greyhawk gods powers

6) "Official" application in GDQ Queen of Spiders supermodule (1986) infers swapping spells that are duplicated in WOG powers with UA spells.

[GRWelsh]

Lolth is one of those monsters that everyone knows about but few have seen in action. This is one of the rare times I've read about an actual confrontation with Lolth. It has been fascinating to read about. I've always wanted it to be more about interacting with a personage than merely a combat such as with any monster encountered in a dungeon room... Or at least to have some role-playing before the combat to have some high stakes established.

[Scott]

Looking at a note I wrote in the encounter:
"If the party does not look up upon entering Lolth will surprise for two segments, dropping directly in front of the party and taking two segments worth of attacks."
Lolth surprised the party. At least one of the attacks hit and a drow NPC was killed. She tried talking to the party at the start of the next round, but the party had no interest and went full attack mode.She did manage to gate in a Type I demon, but the fight was over before she could summon any spiders.

[grodog]

We killed Lolth a few times as kids playing the GDQ modules, but I haven't tried to DM the series since high school (and probably more like grade school).

I would definitely allow her to use at-will powers in addition to physical attacks, but as I recall most of Lolth's meatier spellcasting powers were limited to her drowic form, so she looks more dangerous on paper than I think she is in play, in that respect.

I may have the chance to fight her if Bill Silvey's game does in fact shift into the Giants-Drow modules---we're getting closer, level-wise: most PCs are 7th-9th level....

Allan.