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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 12, 2023 12:31:19 GMT -5
The internet is abuzz with discussion about the leaked OGL 1.1 in which Wizards of the Coast makes many changes. If the leaked document proves to be accurate, this will hurt many third party creators. It also seems like a betrayal since OGL 1 included a clause that seemed to guarantee against this ever happening (9. Updating the license: Wizards or its designated agents may publish updated versions of this license. You may use any version of this license to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this license). However, legal minds have opined that since the original OGL does not include the legal term "irrevocable" Wizards may revoke OGL 1 which would invalidate clause 9 as well.
What does everyone think of these changes? How does this affect 1st edition AD&D players, and fans of the World of Greyhawk? How does it affect retro-clones like OSRIC? This makes me want to stop buying from Wizards of the Coast and go out and support third party creators more. Maybe using the Castles & Crusades game system to publish AD&D-compatible content -- as EGG did -- is the way to go?
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Post by Scott on Jan 12, 2023 13:14:54 GMT -5
I think the online community loves drama, and now since there are so many bloggers/vloggers/streamers who rely on clicks for revenue it’s probably not the apocalypse that many are making it out to be. It’s an annoying kerfuffle that I am sick of seeing every where I go. I’ll think about it when it is official and I see what the impact really will be.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 12, 2023 13:18:15 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 12, 2023 13:32:44 GMT -5
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Post by Scott on Jan 12, 2023 14:00:50 GMT -5
Looks 2:30 PM is when it goes live.
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Post by Scott on Jan 12, 2023 14:36:07 GMT -5
That link his for some 3rd party publisher video. WotC's response is going to be released at 3 PM.
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Post by Scott on Jan 12, 2023 16:01:06 GMT -5
Well, I heard Wizards canceled the announcement.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 12, 2023 16:02:28 GMT -5
If there was rioting before...
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 13, 2023 10:54:49 GMT -5
They canceled the announcement, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't still going through with the change. I talked to Eric about this yesterday, and he surmised that WotC leaked this on purpose to get feedback, so they can alter the official OGL 1.1 and claim it isn't bad at all by compared to the rumored version. I think Eric is giving them too much credit. I doubt they are two steps ahead. Instead, I think it is more likely they were intending to surprise third party creators by not giving them that much time to react, and instead a mole leaked the OGL 1.1 and surprised WotC and now they're back on their heels reconsidering their options. They must have expected a negative reaction, but I doubt they expected this size of a mushroom cloud...
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Post by Scott on Jan 13, 2023 13:27:38 GMT -5
I think it’s like a lot of social media riots. A few fringe voices can make an issue seem much bigger than it really is. A lot of the profile I see cranking out the hysteria are profile with a history of click bait style posts, and not regular content creators. But I do think WotC brought in somebody that thinks D&D players are just like video gamers who spend bundles of cash on in-app/game purchases. They tried a similar monetization strategy with 4E, trying to add a a heroclix style minis game element to it, and it flopped. The market will do what the market does.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 13, 2023 14:20:13 GMT -5
Well, its quiet now at least...
If this is just another corporate maneuver, like we've seen across the board with most corporations lately, then its just the usual attempts to reposition their PC views. That is the original reason that I broke away from the big corp "license" so I can not be bound by their heavy views to keep it "fan reasonable" and not placate BS.
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Post by Scott on Jan 13, 2023 16:39:18 GMT -5
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 13, 2023 22:12:38 GMT -5
Sounds like it is going to be bonkers from the wordage. Hopefully it's not as bad as the vibe that I'm getting.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Jan 15, 2023 15:03:21 GMT -5
How this is relevant to us (people creating stuff for 1E):
You don’t need the OGL to create a 1E-compatible module and never did (look at how Guy Fullerton and Anthony Huso release their stuff). Some folks (like me) included it anyway, on the understanding that doing so was safer legally. This new development changes that understanding. I, at least, will no longer be releasing content under the OGL and will follow the other model instead (saying “compatible for use with AD&D” but including a disclaimer that AD&D is a trademark of Wizards of the Coast used without permission and that you and your product are not affiliated with Wizards of the Coast). I’m still going to avoid proper nouns - no Tenser or Mordenkainen, no Graz’zt or Zuggtmoy, not Greyhawk or Verbobonc (I’ve seen that other guys do use some of these names, but IMO that feels more risky than I’m comfortable with) - but it is nice not to have to do nudge-wink indirect “intended for use with the original Advanced edition of the leading fantasy roleplay system” or whatever.
It does probably kill the idea of “close clone” games like OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord, which is both good and bad. It’s bad because those games (at least in theory) helped keep the original systems alive for younger audiences who are more comfortable with a new/contemporary product than having to deal with 40+ year old books with their tiny print and mostly-bad art and dated sexist stuff. But it’s also perhaps good in that some of those games (not OSRIC so much, but some of the others) seemed like they were eclipsing the original games they’re copying/preserving or at very least causing brand confusion - IMO it’s better for people to say they’re playing Original D&D or AD&D or B/X D&D than that they’re playing “Swords & Wizardry” or “Old School Essentials” or whatever, especially when fans of those versions advise new players to steer clear of the original games because the new versions are better (which they mean mostly in terms of art and layout and cleaner editing and organization, but it still comes off like they’re trying to replace the old games instead of preserving them).
I know some of the clone-game publishers have announced they’re going to revise their games to no longer rely on the WotC SRD so they’ll no longer have to use the OGL. I feel like that will be easier said than done, and either way the result will inevitably be that the games end up being further from the originals which (at least for me) undermines their appeal. On the other hand from what I understand OSRIC will stay under the old OGL. Which I guess is good for anyone who wants the OSRIC book as s convenient AD&D reference, but eliminates its value as a publishing aid and lingua franca: in order for a product to use and brand itself for OSRIC you have to use the OSRIC license, part of which requires that you also use the OGL. And even if WotC does decide to leave the old OGL in place and allow publishers to continue to use it (which is by no means a given) the trust is gone and I suspect few if any new products will ever use the old OGL again even if it remains an option, because WotC has shown their clear intent to cancel it (or at least unilaterally change its terms to something much less friendly) and even if they don’t do so now the threat will always be there.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 15, 2023 16:17:21 GMT -5
I was just paranoid after looking at that new DRAGONLANCE hardcover. It was so pitifully politically correct that I can just imagine the humiliation translating into some form of legal rage at anything D&D. With my blog in mind that uses AD&D stats.
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Post by maximus on Jan 28, 2023 19:30:42 GMT -5
I use C&C in my Greyhawk campaign. I use mostly AD&D modules with some Frog God and Advanced Adventures stuff thrown in. I'll continue to use C&C and support both TLG and 3rd party publishers, and avoid WoTC like the plague it is.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 2, 2023 10:36:27 GMT -5
Was this ever resolved? It seems like once it became "settled" that talk fizzled away. You know? Just like everything else in the world? So its back in place for now is what I'm getting. I did have a spike in Broken Castle sales for January which was crazy so its most likely related. So I feel like even more obliged to get this recovery moving along. I don't really feel that my crap should be the center of what people are doing but I could have a license that is similar if it is not going to aggravate me.
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Post by Scott on Feb 2, 2023 10:59:21 GMT -5
I never looked into the details, since I didn't really see it having much of an effect on me. I know WotC changed the plan because of the backlash, but again, I haven't looked into the details.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 2, 2023 13:49:07 GMT -5
From what I can tell, Wizards of the Coast backed off and they are allowing the existing OGL to remain in place. But unless they add the words "irrevocable" to it, the legal opinion is they can still revoke it at any time. Also, it doesn't have to apply to 6th edition D&D when that comes out. So, nobody trusts them now and the goodwill that existed previously has been destroyed. A lot of third party publishers seemed to get a sales bump in January as a result. So, good for "Broken Castle" and all the little guys! I don't see Wizards of the Coast as monolithically evil... There are always going to be a corporate leaders who "don't get it" and just want to make more money, but that doesn't mean the company doesn't still have creative types who care about the game and the community. People will always play D&D, and I'll always give the brand a chance if they put out decent product. Right now all I see are giant hardbacks of vaguely nostalgic mega-campaigns full of fluff and digital art... Meh. If that changes, or I'm wrong, I'll buy some of their product. But I would not trust them if I were going to be a third party publisher or small game company with overlapping interests, ever again.
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