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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 17, 2022 10:05:54 GMT -5
Did EGG write any details about what could be called the 'Theogony of Oerth' meaning the origins and genealogy of the gods? I know there are various snippets that can be gleaned here and there from the game materials and Gord books, but I am wondering if he addressed this in any discussions. For example, what gods begat what gods, how they were related, who created what, etc. It might be nice to have this as a DM reference. Not everything needs to be defined, but I'd like to combine everything that EGG established into a single document. One possibility is that there are multiple creation stories depending on what pantheons you're talking about, and certain cultures may have overlap with gods of different pantheons while others may not. So, for example the priests of Pelor may have their own scriptures such as the "Revelations of Pelor" in which he is described as the creator deity and force of light, life, strength and healing and opposed to Nerull the Reaper, and perhaps Beory was a goddess who chose Pelor over Nerull and that set up an eternal conflict, with Nerull vengefully introducing death into the world after the love of Pelor and Beory created life. Then later Pelor and other good gods created a way for there to be an afterlife, to defeat death. It doesn't have to be true, but could be an example of how each set of gods or pantheon may have its own stories and myth cycle.
Something else I was thinking about was the structure of the Inner and Outer Planes... Why does that structure even exist? It may tie into a past conflict among the gods, or a resolution of that conflict. An idea is that the good and neutral deities joined together to separate the deities into the planes of their alignment and away from the Prime Material Plane so they wouldn't destroy it with their constant fighting. The naming and organization of the planes is a bit of a hodgepodge from various myths and religions of earth, which is great for allowing lots of options, but presents some difficulty in coming up with a core creation myth. So, we have the Seven Heavens, Twin Paradises (?), Limbo, Pandemonium and Nine Hells of Christianity existing alongside Nirvana of Buddhism, the Happy Hunting Grounds of Native Americans, Elysium, Olympus, Arcadia, Acheron, Hades and Tarterus of Greek Mythology, and Gladsheim of Norse Mythology. The Inner Planes have Arabic associations with the Djinn and Efreet being placed there as well as medieval alchemy with the classical four elements and reference to ether/aether. And then there is the Astral Plane of Doctor Strange comics. This "throw it all in there" approach is similar to how the World of Greyhawk is, when you think about it, since it is a varied setting where you could have campaigns ranging from pirates, to vikings, high fantasy to low fantasy, Dark Ages to the Renaissance... There's something for everybody.
When looking back, it appears that up until the publication of the PLAYERS HANDBOOK (1978), the default assumption was that the gods who interacted with D&D campaigns were those of real world religions and mythologies, but also with some fictional entities in the mix. So, it wouldn't be that odd to have a cleric of Odin in the same party as a cleric of Apollo, and go up against an evil temple of Tsathoggua-worshippers. In fact, this is how I started playing as well. I remember players writing down "Christian" above the religion entry on their goldenrod player character sheets when they wanted to play a Christian knight, and my sister had a cleric who worshipped Athena. The ELDRITCH WIZARDRY (1976) and GODS, DEMIGODS & HEROES (1976) supplements seemed to reinforce this idea with demons, devils, and gods of earth's religions and mythology getting detailed. With that all-encompassing approach in mind, EGG structured of the planes in the PLAYERS HANDBOOK to allow for all of this, and in that context it makes sense. If you detail the gods it makes sense to detail where they are from, as well. All religions and mythologies are true in the D&D multiverse -- or can be -- as this approach allows DMs with the maximum number of tools in their toolbox.
When developing the gods of the World of Greyhawk, however, EGG moved away from the real world religions and mythologies and into originality. I actually prefer this to the prior "eveything goes" approach, as it makes each campaign world more distinctive and self-contained. There may be a few relicts of the prior approach, such as the naming of Saint Cuthbert, and Iggwilv being a cipher for Baba Yaga, but for the most part it was wiping the slate clean to start fresh. The more I think about it, it is untenable to try to come up with a core mythology for the D&D multiverse. I'm afraid if I tried it would look like what they've attempted to do by renaming certain planes to try to get away from earth-based religions and mythologies in 2nd and later editions: Carceri, Baator, Mechanus, Bytopia, Mount Celestia, Beastlands, Arborea and Ysgard... yuck. What's really odd is the way they've renamed some, but kept the names of others like Elysium, Gehenna, Hades, Pandemonium and Limbo. It's an inconsistent approach that comes across as kind of lame. A better approach may be to leave the planes named as is, with all of the classical references, yet develop individual mythologies and religious lore for the original gods. A great source of inspiration could be "The Gods of Pegāna" by Lord Dunsany, which was also a huge influence on Lovecraft.
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Post by Scott on Nov 17, 2022 16:24:10 GMT -5
These are some of my biggest issues with Greyhawk as a published setting. I know Gary's stated intention was to provide a framework and still give individual DMs room to customize the setting, but it causes problems as a shared setting, especially when a lot of the 'do it yourself' stuff is so foundational. It's why Greyhawk has always had such a fractured fan base, which you don't see as much of with something like the Forgotten Realms, which was published as an official, canon heavy setting.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 17, 2022 17:24:44 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the open-endedness of Greyhawk, I'm just asking if you guys are aware of god or planar lore from EGG that I might not be. Most Greyhawk fans prefer its open-endedness over campaign worlds like Forgotten Realms, which is so heavily detailed that it is off-putting unless you've been collecting every source book published since the mid 80's. Actually, I think EGG was very intuitive in providing just enough detail to generate interest yet still allowing DMs freedom.
Possibly the most information EGG ever provided on his conception of gods, higher powers and planes of existence in the D&D multiverse was in the Gord books, in particular COME ENDLESS DARKNESS and DANCE OF DEMONS. Mostly what I remember are the detailed descriptions of battles in the lower planes among demons, devils and daemons, and the Lords of Balance enlisting Gord to be their champion against Gravestone and Tharizdun. But I always wondered... What about the good gods? Where were Pelor, Pholtus, St Cuthbert, Heironeous and others during this epic conflict? Why was it that the Lords of Balance -- neutral powers -- had to stand up against Tharizdun? Was this addressed in the books, and I'm just not remembering it?
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 18, 2022 11:11:59 GMT -5
The LA gods were really close parallels to real world gods but "LEJENDARY ADVENTURES: BOOK OF MYTHICAL KNOWLEDGE" was never released. I was only allowed to look at a few pantheons but they were large (From 20 to 50 gods apiece). They were interspersed with fictional deities of Gary's creation. He had 8 levels of power. 14 greater pantheons and 6 lesser pantheons. Each pantheon was mixed with "demons and devils" and other similar subcategories of different folklore cosmic beings.
I did not see any of the European pantheons but the few "Eastern/Easternish" pantheons, that I did see, had "Zagyg" as part of all pantheons. That is the only thing that I remember.
There is a list of the pantheons online that I found but I don't know if this is the official list but I marked off the ones that I saw:
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 18, 2022 12:47:30 GMT -5
Heh, every time you talk about that game it reminds me of EGG giving you Lejendary Hawaii to develop...
"Gene, put on your Hawaiian shirt... Do I have some news for you!"
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Post by Scott on Nov 18, 2022 13:36:12 GMT -5
When EGG was originally working on the Yggsburgh/Castle Zagyg material he was going to use LA pantheon material. I have a file of it somewhere. The Tenoric pantheon was going to be the dominant faith in Yggsburgh. One of the expansion adventures I was working on was related to Olympian Greek/Roman mythology.
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 18, 2022 14:03:57 GMT -5
The other non-Pacific were colonists of Native Americans and neo-Babylonians. Too much for my brain to process.
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Post by grodog on Nov 18, 2022 22:21:03 GMT -5
Something else I was thinking about was the structure of the Inner and Outer Planes... Why does that structure even exist? I did compile a planar bibliography from The Dragon, the rulebooks, etc. in my article in Knockspell #1 at grodog.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-theory-and-use-of-gates-in-campaign-dungeons.html and in the past year or so I discovered additional planar writings from Steve Marsh in fanzines (in The Lords of Chaos in particular) which may shed some further light on the development of the planes. That said, even with all of that, there really wasn't much structure to the planes in OD&D overall, and it was only as AD&D matured that the planes got more defined. When looking back, it appears that up until the publication of the PLAYERS HANDBOOK (1978), the default assumption was that the gods who interacted with D&D campaigns were those of real world religions and mythologies, but also with some fictional entities in the mix. FWIW, the pantheons for Conan and Elric appeared in Gods Demigods & Heroes in 1976, so there was some fictional interplay between the real-world and pulp/fantasy pantheons BITD (and don't forget Holmes and Kuntz's HPL mythos from TD too). I don't have a problem with the open-endedness of Greyhawk, I'm just asking if you guys are aware of god or planar lore from EGG that I might not be. [snip] Was this addressed in the books, and I'm just not remembering it? If you're looking for a framework to inter-releate your pantheons and planes, you could do far worse than to check out The Primal Order books published by WotC prior to MtG's release; they're at www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/5669/Hostile-Work-EnvironmentThere are at least a few good articles about designing pantheons in Dragon, too. Allan.
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Post by maximus on Dec 1, 2022 10:47:35 GMT -5
Possibly the most information EGG ever provided on his conception of gods, higher powers and planes of existence in the D&D multiverse was in the Gord books, in particular COME ENDLESS DARKNESS and DANCE OF DEMONS. Mostly what I remember are the detailed descriptions of battles in the lower planes among demons, devils and daemons, and the Lords of Balance enlisting Gord to be their champion against Gravestone and Tharizdun. But I always wondered... What about the good gods? Where were Pelor, Pholtus, St Cuthbert, Heironeous and others during this epic conflict? Why was it that the Lords of Balance -- neutral powers -- had to stand up against Tharizdun? Was this addressed in the books, and I'm just not remembering it? I remember a Q&A where Gary stated the "ArchDeva" that confronted Gord/Leda/Gellor was really Pelor. Other than that I don't recall any other mention of the Good Gods except for maybe St. Trowbane? From what I gathered, the forces of Neutrality were "fated" to produce a Champion that had a chance to defeat Tharizdun. I wish there had been more background on how that all came to be. I use the Greyhawk gods in my campaign, but am leaning more and more to discard some and go with the theme that each pantheon is really the same gods, but named differently by each ethnic group. Haven't really taken it any further than the idea stage though.
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Post by GRWelsh on Dec 1, 2022 14:54:38 GMT -5
Thanks for the input, guys. This is also a good time for me to reread the original THEOGONY by Hesiod. Next up will be the Norse EDDA. I haven't read them in a while, so I'm looking forward to it. Other works that were very influential on AD&D cosmology were Dante's INFERNO and Milton's PARADISE LOST. I read those back in the 1990's and they deserve a refresher as well.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 18, 2023 11:12:26 GMT -5
What should the role of Tharizdun and/or the Elder Elemental Gods be in the theogony of the gods of Oerth? How did EGG regard these beings in relation to the greater gods? Did he envision these beings as being even older than the greater gods?
In Oerth Journal #12, EGG specifically mentioned that the Elder Elemental Eye and Tharizdun were separate entities:
Q: Some people have lumped the Elder Elemental God (EEG) and Tharizdun together. My perspective is that they are distinct beings. Would you clarify their relationship, or lack thereof?
A: I meant no relationship between the two. The Elder Elemental God I saw as a dark creative deity, one that spun form out of chaos in his portion of one universe, then lost control of his creation-as is the story with so many deities of this sort in the mythology of various peoples of earth, from Babylonian and Egyptian on.
Tharizdun is a larger and more pervasive force that is multiversal but not omnipresent. That is what he sought, of course, along with omnipotence. Tharizdun failed on both accounts.
...
Oj Tharizdun is one of the most enigmatic deities in Greyhawk. Even in module WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun more mystery is created than dispelled. Is Tharizdun a primordial deity? How would you characterize this deity's aspects?
A: Tharizdun was indeed a primordial deity, that of matter at rest and decay of energy, viz. entropy. In WG4 he was presented as a dark and vaguely threatening "something" and the four aspects were to make the reader/player uncertain of what Tharizdun boded were he ever released.
In the Gord yarns, his release was deemed to be complete, so the worst and most terrible of Tharizdun's forms could come into full power and attack thus. I wish to point out that all that he did is not as it seems, for an obvious reason I won't go into unless I ever get around to authoring an eighth tale in the epic of Gord. I do have some number of other projects ahead of that, but the springboard and conclusion of such a work are pretty well set in mind right now.
Q: What is Tharizdun's holy symbol (black sun with variegated rays or inverted ziggurat)? In WG4 the ziggurat appears on the robes of the priesthood in mauve on black or black on mauve. The black sun with variegated rays is found painted on the wall of the High Priests' crypt next to a silver limned figure of black - possibly Tharizdun himself?
A: The black sun with variegated rays is the symbol for Tharizdun (free), while the inverted ziggurat is that used to show that although Tharizdun was bound, the work of those who did so would be overturned. The silver limned figure of black is indeed an image of Tharizdun.
...
Greyhawk Gods
An ancillary result of the Q&A sessions was the creation of the Greyhawk Gods sourcebook for the author's own campaign. With Gary's collaboration, a manuscript was put together detailing the creation stories for each pantheon and describing over 168 deities associated with or unique to the World of Greyhawk setting. One such entry, directly related to the lines of questioning above, is provided hereafter. Perhaps, if there is interest in such a product, the whole manuscript will one day find its way to the printed page.
While Monster Mythology has a general treatment of an Elder Elemental God, the following is a description of the EEG specific to Oerth, much like Ghaunadaur is a specific description of an EEG on Toril (FOR2 Drow of the Underdark). The priesthood presented here is more balanced than the Monster Mythology version, being much less powerful and in accordance to the rules for specialty priests found in PO: Spells and Magic.
Elder Elemental God (Rentaq)
GREATER POWER Racial Origin: Unknown
Areas of Control: Chaos, Creation, Power, Prowess, Horror Alignment: CE
Plane: Prime Material (Oerth; unknown alternate universe previously) Sex: Male
In its true form, Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq appears as a huge, squid-like creature having ten hairy tentacles and being mottled with various shades and tints of purple and violet. In this form it has a single golden eye that turns a fiery red-orange when the being is aroused.
One of three Elder Elemental Gods (EEG), Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq is a dark, creative deity that had spun form out of chaos in its portion of one universe and then lost control of it. Weakened and reduced to using its true form, the EEG fled to Oerth, hiding itself within the eternal darkness of Tharizdun's reign. When Pelor first shone and drove out Tharizdun, the EEG skulked into the dark recesses of Unoerth (the underground world of Oerth) where it slowly regained its powers.
Over time the EEG drew the attention of evil giants, establishing a cult that sacrificed to the EEG. As the centuries passed, small groups of other races served as both worshippers and sacrifices to the EEG. Eventually, an enclave of ancient Flannae discovered the EEGs existence. These foolish few began to worship the alien being and were soon sacrificing to it. Discovering this corruption of her children, Beory became enraged. With matronly fury she smote the evil god with her powerful staff, instantly changing the EEG into a column of stone. She followed this with a second terrible blow that reduced the column to rubble.
All that remained of the EEG were chunks of cloudy, translucent, mauve and red stone. In some shards shapeless forms of purple, yellow, and green swayed and danced, in others horrible, mauve- splotched, hairy tentacles writhed, and in one a huge fiery-orange eye burned with hatred and vengeance.
Beory swept away these evil fragments and hid them away in the darkest recesses of Oerth. There she hoped they would remain hidden from her children forever. Such were the past eons. Now a few depraved enclaves have discovered some of these shards and are making it their mission to find more.
In fact, the EEG was not destroyed but entrapped by Beory's blow. As a result the deity is crippled and can only access the Prime Material plane through these fragments. It greatly desires to be freed.
It is unknowable what the EEGs true area of control is. What is known, is that the deity provides personal power and prowess to those evil humans, drow, and evil giants that sacrifice to it.
Temples and shrines are built around shards of the EEG. These shards are scattered throughout Unoerth, in subterranean caves, labyrinths, and rifts. Most are hidden beneath mountain ranges,
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Post by Scott on Jan 18, 2023 14:16:46 GMT -5
EGG was his typical vague self. If you go with the multiverse/multiple prime material planes approach, it makes thing a lot different than your classic myths. Beings older than any particular setting would be common. That fits with Tharizdun's unknown origin designation. He could be like a planer Galactus who haunts the multiverse looking for Primes to destroy. Same thing for the alien EEGs. I really think the two concepts are redundant. I know a lot of people get rabid at the suggestion that they are the same being, but the idea gets more appealing as time goes on. If you tie Tharizdun to the Oerth's origin then it becomes very Satan, Morgoth, etc. in tone.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 18, 2023 15:49:29 GMT -5
I believe EGG thought that from the creative point of view more options were always better. So, having a multiplicity of entities or leaving things mysterious was better than one entity or a clear explanation from the standpoint of allowing future development. But from a DM point of view, just as with a chef, although it is always better to have more ingredients in the pantry, it is never practical to use them all in one dish. A DM must craft the campaign defined as much by what is left out as by what included. So, you may want to have a simpler narrative for your players to be able to easily grasp ("So and so is the great evil, and this is the good god who opposes him"). In that sense, I agree with you -- simpler can often better from the standpoint of presenting a concise and compelling narrative.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 18, 2023 17:37:06 GMT -5
You could creatively do it one way or the other or both. I think player perspective is the chief so a reduction of knowns to spin stale material around might be interesting. For example, Saruman is really Sauron and there never was a Sauron. It was all one big scam to get Aragorn into power. Gandalf was actually smoking a cigar with the Balrog after they "fell". And Pippin is on it to watch Denethor. Then later on it turns out that Sauron was indirectly involved when the DM is looking for more material... As for Greyhawk in general, it will always have that algebraic X equation no matter who finalizes it. Hopefully, not in a stale way.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 20, 2023 9:55:23 GMT -5
See, this is why we need Gene around here... He lampoons any discussion that takes itself too seriously!
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Post by Scott on Jan 20, 2023 11:25:15 GMT -5
That’s one of the things I’ve always loved about Gene. But man, the gamers who take themselves too seriously get bent way out of shape by it.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 24, 2023 11:39:29 GMT -5
There probably isn't one single theogony from the point of view of the peoples of Oerth. There are probably several, which may have some similarities but also some differences. Since all of these gods are 'real' there must be a behind-the-scenes version that is 'true' (and only known to the DM, if known at all), but it is possible that players will never know it, at least completely. Each pantheon likely has its own creation myth, theogony, war of the gods, etc. Certain races probably have their own versions as well:
SULOISE: With oldest calendar may have oldest written versions, starting with Lendor and the Creation of Time. BAKLUNISH: Probably with a strong emphasis on Istus and concept of Fate, many links to elementals like djinn, efreet, etc. OERIDIAN: Originating in north central Oerik along coasts and islands with strong focus on Procan and life coming from the ocean. FLAN: Pelor (sun) and Beory (earth) creating life counterbalanced by Nerull (death) and with Rao (reason) providing solutions. UNKNOWN: Remnants from unknown human or pre-human civilizations, discovered only through active adventuring. OLVENFOLK: Oldest oral traditions that include elements not present in the human versions, such as details on spirits versus souls. DWURFOLK/NONIZ: Dwarf and gnome myths are more similar to each others, focus on Ulaa and giants, trolls, goblins, etc. HOBNIZ: No formal myths or ancient history but only folklore limited to "the Man in the Moon" type poetry and stories.
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Post by Scott on Jan 24, 2023 14:48:15 GMT -5
I’ve thought about that. My thought was that in a setting where the gods are real, and you have humans, elves, etc that can talk to them, and they occasionally show up in person, I wouldn’t think there would be much variance. As time goes on, and different cultures emerge, you might see differences in what certain gods/pantheons emphasize, but the creation event would probably be consistent. The only reason there are different creation myths in the real world is because there was no real event and there were no gods to reveal the truth. Every group of people made up their own story. On an individual basis, I like the detailed Greyhawk gods, everything beyond that is a mess. Coming up with a theogony that works for the Norse, or the Greeks, or the Oeridians, etc is fairly easy. Coming up with a theogony that works for a whole world is a much more daunting task.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 24, 2023 17:18:57 GMT -5
In the beginning, the great archer Galhoo-Ghalag crawled out of the primordial quadrille pad to populate next week's dungeon's temple trap...
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 25, 2023 9:06:36 GMT -5
Now I want to know more about the great archer Galhoo-Ghalag!
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