|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Jun 13, 2022 12:17:51 GMT -5
Were the Short War and the Small War supposed to be the same thing? Did anyone ever ask EGG about this? They seem like they could have been two different drafts of the same event that accidentally got published together. Otherwise, you have Furyondy and Veluna defeating Keoland in two separate but similarly named wars about 70 or 80 years apart.
|
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Jun 13, 2022 14:08:22 GMT -5
I think he was trying to create the idea of a Charlemagne-like empire atmosphere for Keoland that fizzled away. So there were all these maneuvers until they just gave up:
Ket
Veluna
Sea Princes
And the allies who stepped off in one way or Gran March, the Ulek States and the Yeomanry were practically all the same Keoland state at one time.
As for asking him, he said it was all in his files.
The state by state stuff that he was going to do that him and Rob started briefly in 1981-1982 was never published for Keoland. I think it was "TFoster" who said that 1982 was the real death of "published D&D" and the more you look at it that is the way it seems. Everything that came after that time seems a little watered down even the WG series. They could have spelled that out better so there wouldn't be all this Circle of 8 confusion but perhaps they knew "AD&D" as an idea was on its last legs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Jun 13, 2022 20:57:35 GMT -5
I'd say it's the same, and I'm going with the 2 out of 3 and calling it the Short War.
Under Veluna it states, "After the unfortunate Short War (see Bissel, Keoland)"
But Bissel doesn't mention a Short War, "March of Bissel, was the northernmost frontier of the kingdom of Keoland,c. 400 CY. It was wrested from the latter in the Small War (Furyondy vs. Keoland) which ended Keoish influence in Veluna (438 CY)
Keoland: At the peak of this imperialism, Keoland held sway from the Pomarj to the Crystalmist Mountains, while her armies pushed into Ket and threatened Verbobonc and Veluna City (c. 350-360 CY). The Ketite expedition came to grief in successive battles (Molvar, Lapolla), while an alliance between Veluna and Furyondy ended the Keoish threat in that quarter (Short War).
I think the 350 - 360 CY may refer to the years Keoland was at its peak, and not the years the conflict between Keoland and Furyondy occurred, and there aren't two separate events 70 - 80 years apart.
|
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Jun 14, 2022 9:07:03 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to agree with that, Scott, especially since the Veluna entry refers to Bissel for more details on the Short War and Bissel entry doesn't mention the Short War but mentions the Small War. That implies they are two different names for the same event. The timing is still a bit confusing, though, since the c. 350-360 CY reference comes right after the sentence about armies pushing into Ket and threatening Verbobonc and Veluna City, which would also be Keoland's peak in terms of territorial expansion. So, I'm guessing EGG had separate sets of notes he was combining and had different draft versions describing the event that ended Keoland's peak of power or at least territorial expansion -- one with reference to a Short War and the other with reference to a Small War, and one occurring c. 350-360 CY and the other ending 438 CY.
Gene, that's interesting about the Charlemagne-like empire atmosphere, which seems to be a recurring influence in the World of of Greyhawk. Along with the Great Kingdom, Keoland has its waxing and waning, a shift from goodness to tyranny, and subsequent break-up of many outer holdings -- although in Keoland's case it returns to goodness with renewed goodwill among its neighbor states.
|
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Jun 14, 2022 10:52:25 GMT -5
The timing is still a bit confusing, though, since the the c. 350-360 CY reference comes right after the sentence about armies pushing into Ket and threatening Verbobonc and Veluna City, which would also be Keoland's peak in terms of territorial expansion. It's actually the same sentence. Which is why I didn't read it as dates for the Short War. Reaching it's peak, pushing into Ket, threatening Verbobonc/Veluna, and the 350-360 dates are all part of the same sentence. The way the whole sentence is structured reads to me like a description of the peak boundaries and when it occurred. These were the east to west limits, and then describing the boundaries in the north, but less matter of fact wording. Basically my history would be: Between the years of 350 and 360 Keoland reached it's peak. It controlled the land from the Pomarj to the Crystalmist Mountains. In the north it had seized land in Ket and had pushed into Veluna, but had not reached Verbobonc or Veluna City. After 360 Ket started pushing Keoland out. Between 360 and 438 Keoland continued to occupy a portion of western Veluna. There was continual skirmishing between Keoland forces and Veluna with minor changes to the border. in 438 Furyondy joined Veluna and were able to quickly push Keoland out and seized Bissel in the same action. In my version of the setting the pre-migration Oeridians were like the Franks, Saxons, etc. and Hieroneous was a Chalemagne type figure. And like the Franks, when a king died the kingdom didn't pass in whole to the eldest son, it was divided up between all the sons. Hieroneous and Hextor each got half and battled it out for domination with Hieroneous ultimately coming out victorious and winning control of all the Oeridian lands, a Holy Oeridian Empire. |
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2022 11:16:06 GMT -5
The thing with Greyhawk is there is the obvious reverse America-superimposed then there is the Castle & Crusade era of pre-Gryhawk map lingering in the back ground.
So for Keoland its a quasi-"13 colonies" and its also the realm of wargamer Tom Keogh on top. Is the "Tavish" imperialism a reflection of his behavior and the wars a parallele of lost games to expand his territory?
|
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Jun 15, 2022 12:56:45 GMT -5
Basically my history would be: Between the years of 350 and 360 Keoland reached it's peak. It controlled the land from the Pomarj to the Crystalmist Mountains. In the north it had seized land in Ket and had pushed into Veluna, but had not reached Verbobonc or Veluna City. After 360 Ket started pushing Keoland out. Between 360 and 438 Keoland continued to occupy a portion of western Veluna. There was continual skirmishing between Keoland forces and Veluna with minor changes to the border. in 438 Furyondy joined Veluna and were able to quickly push Keoland out and seized Bissel in the same action. Something like this is probably the best way to handle it. I still think there was most likely an editorial error, but your history does a good job of making everything fit together as best as possible. Not that it matters much since this is all background information most players don't care about. I like the idea of some demi-humans still living who remember when Keoland was an imperialistic "evil empire" and thus may still distrust some of its intentions, or fear a return to imperialism. Yeah, I like that. I had always envisioned Hieroneous as an Achilles-type figure, an ancient hero-deity of lightning who fought in an age when gods more frequently walked the earth, had armies and realms, and went to war against each other. At the end of that age, greater deities of goodness and neutrality put limitations on how much beings from other planes could interact with the Prime Material worlds like Oerth so as not to destroy them with their incessant warring. To me, this fits in well with the ending of the Gord books. |
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Jun 15, 2022 13:14:41 GMT -5
The thing with Greyhawk is there is the obvious reverse America-superimposed then there is the Castle & Crusade era of pre-Gryhawk map lingering in the back ground. So for Keoland its a quasi-"13 colonies" and its also the realm of wargamer Tom Keogh on top. Is the "Tavish" imperialism a reflection of his behavior and the wars a parallele of lost games to expand his territory? Yes, there was certainly a lot going in EGG's mind when pulling together sources for the World of Greyhawk. The Flanaess is a reverse-America and has the great lakes and some Native American-like cultures, but also is a reverse-Europe with all the nations and city-states, heraldry, palatine nobles, etc. The "Great Kingdom" map of the Domesday Book for the Castles & Crusades Society and the geographical link to Blackmoor is a major antecedent. There are lots of name drops for friends and family. Keoland seems like an obvious homage to Tom Keogh, but we may never know if that is more than "name deep." I wouldn't put it past EGG to have some deeper layers of meaning buried in there, such as with a reference to how a war game campaign played out or a player character who became power hungry (PC named Tavish?). I've always seen Keoland as a smaller parallel to the Great Kingdom, with its local dominance and common language (Keolandish), rise from goodness to tyrrany, but with a different ending and also more multicultural and not primarily Oeridian. |
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2022 15:42:40 GMT -5
I just checked on your link to the photo that you took of the Legends of Wargaming map presentation:  And Keoland isn't assigned anyone on the sidebar. Its just a bunch of hills at the very bottom. |
|
