Another Gary Forum Gem

[geneweigel]

Part of this came up on Dragonsfoot in 2003 regarding Gary's intro to Dangerous Journeys:Necropolis (1991):

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3074

I found in a folder, the original text from May 2001 copied into a txt file of that extracted quote from before "Third Edition News forum" shifted over to ENWorld. It has him saying the correct way to say "drow" and "Iuz" is interchangeable (On the phone with me he was saying "dro" and "yuz". Here it is in it's entirety:

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Gygax's original world of Greyhawk

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Author Topic: Gygax's original world of Greyhawk
Geoffrey
Member posted 05-25-2001 05:51 PM
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I have followed with interest the debate regarding the merits of Gary Gygax's 1980-1983 World of Greyhawk vs the later Greyhawk stuff developed by TSR and WotC. What is interesting is that it seems that Mr. Gygax's own D&D campaign world is very different from what was published. Consider these two quotes:
From The Dragon #1 (June 1976): "If the learned men of Oerth were able to tell you its geography they would say that in relation to our planet they are quite alike. Asia is a trifle smaller. Europe and North America a trifle larger...Likewise, Oerth has races similar in many respects to ours, and their migrations and distribution somewhat resemble those of our world, but their histories differ sharply from ours departing from our probability line some 2,500 years ago. Then the changes were small, but over the intervening centuries the difference has grown so that there is now no resemblance between Oerth and Earth when the contemporary models are compared."

From the preface to Mr. Gygax's excellent adventure, Necropolis: 'Gygax based his Greyhawk campaign world on our own Earth...[Gary says]: "When the company [TSR] asked me to do a campaign world, I altered my actual setting so as to be able to pack in as much variety into a relatively small area...and provide an entirely different one than that I actually employed in my own play." Because of this radical change, players of the newly devised setting [the World of Greyhawk] could not adventure into the fantasy "parallel world" lands so frequently enjoyed in Gygax's own campaign. [Gary says]: "I kept the 'real world'--that is, the milieu of my own campaign--strictly to myself. After all, it just won't do to have players [that is, those enjoying Mr. Gygax as DM] reading the private notes of the gamemaster, as it were!"

The preface to Necropolis goes on to imply that Mr. Gygax's "Epic of Aerth" contains a campaign world far closer to Mr. Gygax's own than do his 1980-1983 Greyhawk sets. This seems logical, since Aerth is indeed a fantasy parallel to our own Earth.

If we are fortunate, Mr. Gygax himself will post to this thread and fill in all the details missing from these two tantalizing quotes!

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Col_Pladoh
Member posted 05-25-2001 06:09 PM
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Hi Geoffrey,
Thanks for the invite

I think this has been covered elsewhere, but I'll give a quick precis of how the WoG World Setting published by TSR came about:

The company wanted a world setting for AD&D, so I was asked if I could do that. When I agreed, I was given the maximum map size for the project. So I wnet to work and created the Flanaess and Oerik to suit the needs of DMs as I saw them. As much interesting and different material as possible packed into the space available. I used European-type states as the central theme, on the borderlands placed in more exotic ones.

Of course I didn't want to attempt depicting my own "World of Greyhawk," that I used in the campaing then being runby Rob Kuntz and me, for two main reasons. First, it didn't fit the specs handed down to me for the project. Second, it would reveal too much to the large number of players then active in that world.

Aerth from the MYTHUS universe does reflect something closer to the globe of the world we then played, although the sytates given for Aerth are not those principally used in the campaign.

As a matter of fact, the maps in the WoG product were so handy, useful, and appealing, what happened was that in a very short time we moved play to Oerth, Oerik, and the Flanaess. The Village of Homlett, ToEE, and Stoink became centers of campaign activity

That's it in a nutshell.

Ciao,
Gary


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Geoffrey
Member posted 05-26-2001 11:16 AM
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Thank you for your considered reply, Gary! I fantasize about seeing a d20 product sometime next year entitled, "Gary Gygax's Oerth" (by Gary Gygax, of course), which details the actual honest-to-goodness campaign world used by yourself back in the 1970s. Preferably, the d20 content would be kept to the utter minimum, with 99% of the product being description of the good ol' Oerth.
Oh, and did I mention that back in my younger days my games were more often than not set in the Duchy of Geoff? I wonder why?

[This message has been edited by Geoffrey (edited 05-26-2001).]

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DM-THC@home
Member posted 05-26-2001 02:33 PM
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My friends and I have debated in the past:
The Duchy of Geoff. Is that the Duchy of JEFF or the Duchy of GEE-OFF (as my friend insists)? Me, I figure some guy named Geoff was some player who carved out a kingdom in some campaign and got his character's name immortalized in AD&D lore. My buddy insists the name is pronounced "gee-off" and it means nothing - just a random fantasy name. Whenever I bring the topic up he's quick to get annoyed at me. After all, he played Greyhawk for years growing up, and to him and his friends, it was Gee-off.

Me, I say some guy named Geoff got lucky

What's the story?

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Geoffrey
Member posted 05-26-2001 04:08 PM
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I can't speak for Gary, but it simply has to be JEFF. GEE-OFF is ridiculous to the point of being bizarre. The 14th-century poet Geoffrey Chaucer and the 12th-century bishop and historian Geoffrey of Monmouth (who wrote about King Arthur, amongst other things), are only two appropriate namesakes for the Duchy of Geoff.
[This message has been edited by Geoffrey (edited 05-26-2001).]

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BluSponge
Member posted 05-26-2001 04:27 PM
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Not to mention Geoff Tate, lead singer for Queensryche.
Tom

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mythusmage
Member posted 05-27-2001 02:28 AM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Col_Pladoh:
Aerth from the MYTHUS universe does reflect something closer to the globe of the world we then played, although the sytates given for Aerth are not those principally used in the campaign.
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Along with a hollow interior, an enormous cavern/tunnel complex, and an extremely mutable Phæree. Then you add in all the creatures of fantasy, legend, and paleontology (plus the latter's more evolved fictional cousins as created by Gygax and friends), and you get a busy place.

Check out Lejendary Earth for Gary's latest mangling of terra firma.

Alan


------------------
We're 12th, they're
kobolds; what trouble
could they be?


www.mythusmage.com

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Col_Pladoh
Member posted 05-27-2001 03:28 PM
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Salutations!
The grand duchy in question is pronounced "Jeff"--although if it makes the DM more comfortable pronouncing it some different way, what the hey? Go for it Like the discussion of drow being "dro" or or "drow", not much of a matter. both are correct. Iuz might be a different matter, as I always said "E-uz." now, though, it might be, as some prefer, Ey-ooze."

Anyway, to mythusmage's comments: Right on Mr. Editor the Aerth World Setting was a complex, busy, and very adaptable one. D&D coule be played thereon as easily as the MYTHUS RPG could, although the critters would need stat changes or replacing with monsters from the former system. Indeed, the Aerth would readily accomodate the LEJENDARY ADVENTURE system with the same caveat.

Cheerio,
Gary

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Geoffrey
Member posted 05-27-2001 09:05 PM
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I can vouch for that, Gary. I have DMed several original D&D (that is, the 1974-76 rules) games on Aerth, and the players and I loved the setting. Lejendary Adventure on Aerth? Hmmm... Now THAT'S intriguing! Next time that I referee an LA game it's going to be on Aerth. But where on Aerth will I set the adventure?
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Col_Pladoh
Member posted 05-28-2001 11:04 AM
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As with the LEJENDARY EARTH world setting, Aerth is pretty much devised so the GM (DM, JM, LM, whatever) can use the desired place that is compatible with the "ethnic" tone desired.
Playing LA on Aerth is interestiing. If I wasn't in the middle of getting three disparate groups of Avatars together, and it is a process that won't even start untik the current band cmpletes a cave-crawl and discovers the McGuffin that'll send the lot off to meet their alter-egos, then on to the original Avatar band, I'd switch yet again to see how it went.

Well, next year maybe

Gary

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Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47b

[GRWelsh]

Several of us in my gaming group have read D&D and Greyhawk materials for decades without ever hearing the correct pronunciation. I like EGG's attitude that however your gaming group pronounces it is fine, it doesn't really matter. In my mind, I've always pronounced Iuz like "Eye-uz" and Drow as "Dro" although I've heard people pronounce Drow to rhyme with cow. I always pronounced Geoff like "Jee-off" in my mind for some reason, perhaps because of an association with the prefix "geo" a la geomancy and I didn't at first recognize it as a real-world name. This is what happens when you learn words by reading and only pronounce them in your head for years for decades before saying them out loud. It's hard to break certain mental habits! I mispronounced Duchy like "Doo-chee" because of a mental association to duke a la dukedom and my players made fun of me for that. I still occasionally say "Viss-county" rather than the proper "Vy-county" for viscounty as well!

[Scott]

Some of my pronunciations that I’ve heard a lot of variation:
Keoland = Key oh land
Geoff = Jeff
Drow as cow
Iuz originally e-uz, but was talked into e ooze
Nyr Dyv: near dive
Verbobonc: ver BO (long o, accented syllable) bonk
Acererak: a (long a) sar (like Sarah, accented syllable) er ack

[GRWelsh]

When I learn how EGG pronounced things, I do make an effort to change my pronunciation habits. So, I'll be switching from Jee-off to Jeff now.

In regards to world development, I know Scott acquired some information on EGG's personal Greyhawk Campaign including differences from the published World of Greyhawk. I remember vaguely that the personal World of Greyhawk was more like what was quoted from the "Secret of the Gnome Cache" story published in THE DRAGON #1 with Oerth being like a fantasy version of Earth with the same or similar continents and Greyhawk located on the North American continent analogous to where Chicago would be, with Dyvers where Milwaukee is. One could travel from the "Greyhawk Campaign" to the "Blackmoor Campaign" because of the roots going back to the "Great Kingdom" map EGG published in the DOMESDAY BOOK #9 which predated D&D! That also is referenced in the "Gnome Cache" story in which characters ride from the Great Kingdom to Blackmoor and encounter some geography that is familiar and some that is strange. Evidently the two campaigns of Blackmoor and Greyhawk were considered to be on the same world, originally, and Robilar and Mordenkainen travelled to Blackmoor for their "City of Gods" adventure. I thought it was very interesting that EGG drew upon that map for inspiration when preparing a map for the published World of Greyhawk, as well. I've often wondered how much of a hodge podge EGG's personal World of Greyhawk was, and how much of it was clearly defined. One could go to China, worship Norse gods, revere St Cuthbert, and there were tongue in cheek references to things like the Church of the Latter Day Old ones and the Powerhouse Church of the Presumptuous Assumption of the Blinding Light (of which Serten was a cleric). By contrast, the published World of Greyhawk seems to be an attempt at a more serious approach with all or mostly all original gods and religions and less direct ties to Earth. I also thought it was interesting that EGG said: "the maps in the WoG product were so handy, useful, and appealing, what happened was that in a very short time we moved play to Oerth, Oerik, and the Flanaess. The Village of Homlett, ToEE, and Stoink became centers of campaign activity"! Wow! After looking at Darlene's beautiful maps, who could blame him?

[Scott]

The Serten from Gary’s stories was a follower of Pholtus, but in talking with Ernie he verified that the PC was actually a follower of St. Cuthbert.

[GRWelsh]

That's interesting, because in the OFFICIAL ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS COLORING ALBUM written by EGG there is a "Sertern" who is a cleric of St Cuthbert. I always wondered if that was a deliberate misspelling of Serten and an homage to Ernie's character.

Was Poztif ("Positive") the cleric of Pholtus in the Gord books supposed to be Serten ("Certain")?

Oddly enough, I got the information the Serten was a cleric of the Powerhouse Church of the Presumptuous Assumption of the Blinding Light from you, Scott... See the link below:

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1246422&sid=a038d1e9da04d4a3684e47359325be16#p1246422

[Scott]

I think that’s the general assumption, Poztif (the Gleam of Pholtus and associate of Tenser) was a stand in for Serten.

[geneweigel]

Every time that I see our view of it then try to see Gary's view of it. I keep picturing a lawyer saying:"Puns don't count in a court of law, Mr Gygax." I am not sure of any of it. I know creativity is chaos (I was just looking at all my versions of the map of my town of Blackthrush over the years. 3 similar maps with same highlights but there were two duplicate maps, thinking that there was one, and were adjusted separately producing strange alternate versions that don't match up.CHAOS!). I think in regards to Trowbane its two sides of the same coin. Gary approaching the subject with two views in mind. One is Greyhawk is dead (official groupthink) and the other is Greyhawk was alive (my enthusiastic and isolated fervor). So two different approaches for the same subject. If dead it is Cuthbert. If alive its someone close to but mistaken as Cuthbert.

[GRWelsh]

Yes, the duplicate names existed for legal reasons but created opportunities if one was so inclined… it’s certainly interesting to have more entities running around like your St Trowbane and Trow monster write ups. Were the Trow your version of the Norse Svart Alfar?

As far as EGG’s personal Greyhawk Campaign I thought some other relics from it being a parallel Earth were the demon and devil names, Latin taxonomical names for dragons, Japanese Ogre, Sumatran Giant Rat, and pole arm names. You can’t have a Bohemian Ear Spoon without a Bohemia…

[geneweigel]

Sorry, I was going to answer about the trow and got into a day long domestic dispute... You know the usual...

The trow Gary talked to me about several times but it was very vague hinting at the versions featured DANGEROUS JOURNEYS:EPIC OF AERTH (1992) AND LEJENDARY ADVENTURE:BEASTS OF LEJEND (2000):

DJ:

TROW: A race of ELVES (q.v.) with High to Superior abilities and Heka use In the Considerable to Great range, possessing Limited Heka Powers Independent of casting. These are Hobgoblins because trow tend towards unfriendliness and short-temper. They are a "grey" race, so called because of silvery hair being common In both male and female trows.

LA:

Trow in General
Appearing: 5-50+
Short and stocky. avaricious, scheming, and rather sinister. Trow look like beardless, bushyheaded dwarfs having a bad hair day. Their ears are
too large, their mouths too wide, and teeth are of the snaggled and spiky sort. They wear leather garments, and various belts and harnesses from which weapons such as knives and hammers depend.
Trow
H: 36-45 P: 31-50 S: 12 attacking/8 moving
Attacks: A trow will typically have a small crossbow (with spring arms that make it equal to largest of human ones). or several spears, and an assortment of cleavers, hammers, and knives.
Defense: A trow will have a buckler and 8 points of armor. Each individual trow also has one minor Extraordinary Power of some sort, typically
employable once a day only. such as: 1) A trow can, in 1 second, become invisible and remain so for up to 12 seconds (or until striking with
a weapon).
2) A trow can. in 1 second. blend with the surroundings so as to be unnoticed until active.
3) A trow can, in 1 ABC. bring a rain of stinging pebbles for 4 ABCs (12 seconds) into an area of 10-foot radius around the trow (not touching that
individual). such rain of stones causing all therein to operate at an Ability penalty of + 1 O per ABC of exposure, viz. +10 to +40 penalty to dice rolls.
4) A trow can. in 1 second. cause a foot to slip so a subject in sight and within 30 feet distance falls down and must get up next ABC.
5) A trow can instantly dash off at three times normal running speed for 4 ABCs.
6) A trow can instantly dodge a deadly blow.
7) A trow can instantly double its normal precision for one attack.
8) A trow can Instantly elevate a long garment upwards for as long as 4 ABCs so as to obscure the wearer's vision and hinder movement of arms and
hands by at least 50%.
9) A trow can. in 1 ABC. generate for 4 ABCs' duration a blinding. smoke cloud that measures 10 feet in radius, measured at one-foot distance from
the trow's head
10) A trow can. in one second, ignite a fire in any easily inflammable object in sight and not more distant than 60 feet, such as old cloth, dry paper, dead leaves,
11) A trow can instantly leap upwards, arcing or etc.= straight up, as high as 20 feet.
12) A trow can instantly cause an opponent's weapon grip to become greasy so that it can't be held properly for the next 4 ABCs, and will be dropped
each time a blow/use is attempted during this period.
13) A trow can instantly precipitate a heavy rain for 4 ABCs into an area of 10-foot radius. within sight of, and no more distant than 40 feet from. the trow.
14) A trow can instantly somersault-roll for 20-120 feet distance at twice normal running speed.
15) A trow can instantly spin an adversary around 180 degrees.
16) A trow can instantly cause one blow aimed at the trow individual to rebound and strike the attacker. Because they enjoy causing discomfort. and love bad jokes. trow can get along as second fiddles to leprechauns. Although quite friendly with cave trollkin. if trow have anywhere near an equal number, they tend to treat the weaker trollkin as servants. Individual wealth is in the range of$300 to $1,800 in coin. and a like amount in other valuables. There is a 20% chance for one each of the following power Extraordinary objects: Very Minimal. Minimal. Low Moderate. and/or Moderate.
Trow King
H: 61-80 P: 61-80 S: 15 attacking
10 moving
Attacks: A king will typically use a heavy cutting sword plus the usual assortment of cleavers. hammers. and knives.
Defense: A king will use a shield and wears 12 points of armor.
A trow king will usually have 3 or 4 Powers of varied sort. employable once a day only. as given above, or else one Power usable 3 or 4 times daily.

When I said they were very neutral seeming, he said for Greyhawk they would have been a neutral evil elf-seeming dwarf menacing parallel to the drow giving "Trowbane" his name with a hint at being deep and sort of alien feel. He also said they would use wicked tools.

So this is how I rounded that out:

justkeeponrollin.blogspot.com/search/label/trow