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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 7, 2022 13:46:22 GMT -5
I don't like Geoff as portrayed in THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF (1999). Some of the names on the map (p. 44) don't capture the medieval fantasy feel of the World of Greyhawk. Pest's Crossing, West Town, Midwood, Oytmeet, Blue Oyt River and White Oyt River seem off or lazy. The "olvewater" flowing past Hocholve should be the upper Javan River and coming out of the Valley of the Mage instead of from the mountains to the west -- that's just incorrect. Also incorrect is showing Hochoch on the east side of the Realstream River, and part of Gran March. So, I'm doing my own version of Geoff. Maybe I'll keep a few of the names. The idea of a realm overrun with giants and humanoids is interesting, but that's not the situation currently in my campaign.
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Post by Scott on Mar 7, 2022 16:04:33 GMT -5
I was not a fan of the Liberation of Geoff at all. The whole thing was lazy IMO, still cashing in on the G series, but no Gygax vibe at all.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 7, 2022 17:13:08 GMT -5
Right. It reprinted the G series but had no connection other than the giant theme, the same general geographical region, and a few name drops. It had nothing to do with the plot thread connecting the G series which was the Dark Elves being behind it all. So, the added material just felt like "meanwhile several hundred miles to the north." The concept of a realm being overrun with giants isn't a bad one, by itself. That's more like a "what if" scenario. What if the player characters never delivered a check to the giants and they continued their raids and ruined some of the mountain-adjacent realms? But in the G series that would apply to the Yeomanry and Sterich.
Another take on Geoff was from LIVING GREYHAWK which basically made it Wales. I don't think it is necessarily a bad idea to use a real world culture for an Oerth culture, and in the past I've made similar suggestions including a Celtic flavor for Tenh, another Flan-influenced realm. But nowadays I prefer things a bit more ambiguous and fantasy based. Honestly, who wants to struggle through all of those Welsh place names? They're not the easiest to pronounce.
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Post by Scott on Mar 7, 2022 18:08:41 GMT -5
EGG had some head scratchers, but I’ll take Gygaxian over Welsh any day.
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Post by Scott on Mar 7, 2022 19:04:32 GMT -5
I hate the overly obvious appropriation of real word inspirations. Especially in this setting. Most of the Flanaess was settled by a combination of the Flann, Oeridian, and Suel. And the mixing has been pretty thorough in most places. They all speak a common language. Plopping down "Wales" in this setting doesn't really make sense. Yes, most countries will adopt some unique cultural traits, but for the most part I'd expect a mostly homogenous environment on the Flanaess. It's more like states in the country of the Flanaess. I'd say Geoff was more like Idaho. Traveling off the map is where you encounter strange and different cultures.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 8, 2022 8:32:09 GMT -5
EGG's descriptions of the races and cultures of the Flanaess resist one-to-one earth comparisons. People sometimes say "Furyondy is France" but if you look at the place names it isn't particularly French. But you could imagine it as a sort of idealized medieval France with a paladin king and his knights inspired by the chansons de geste. Earl Holmer of the Shield Lands seems to be an homage to Holger Carlson (Ogier the Dane) from THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS by Poul Anderson. You could say the Great Kingdom is like the Holy Roman Empire, but that isn't a perfect analogy either. Other than the noble herzog titles and the root language being Old High Oeridian, Aerdy doesn't seem particularly Germanic. EGG winks at us with names like Rollo of Bissel having the same name as the first viking ruler of Normandy... but that certainly doesn't make Bissel the same as Normandy. A lot of the places and characters of the Flanaess seem to be made up fantasy names or reminiscent of something European but not usually a direct lift. The Living Greyhawk guys probably made Geoff Welsh because the ruler's name was Owen, the same as the last Welsh prince of Wales. If so, that is very thin as a justification to claim "EGG saw this place as Wales." The place names in and around Geoff don't imply that it is Wales. The geography isn't the same and it's land locked. Its heraldry isn't a red dragon passant on a green and white field. Even if you go with the Flan = Celt analogy (which isn't really that solid), EGG clearly states that Geoff isn't just made up of just one human race, but that it mixes the best features of three races. Geoff from Geoffrey is an Anglo-Norman name, not Welsh. So, if anything Geoff should be more like a British culture with Celt/Saxon/Norman all mixed together to make something new.
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Post by Scott on Mar 8, 2022 10:03:31 GMT -5
My recent approach is not to go too deep on an individual country basis, but pre-migration traits. Flann = Howard Picts Oeridian = Franks/Saxons/Holy Roman Empire Suel = Persian/Aryan Bakluni = Asian steppe peoples and Arabic.
Each kingdom is a combination of those traits based on info from the Guide with some individual tweaks using personal preference or some obvious hint EGG dropped.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 8, 2022 16:55:02 GMT -5
Yep, I'm in complete agreement there. I like the interpretation of the Flan as similar to Robert E. Howard's Picts, as it ties in perfectly: a vaguely Amerindian people yet also pre-Celtic or with links to the Celts and the Old Faith, druids, etc. I had imagined the Oeridians as Nordic/Germanic people originating from somewhere along the northern coast of Oerik or perhaps in Fireland or the "Hyperborea" region of Oerth, but that doesn't need to be precisely defined. The Suel as Persian/Aryan is a good fit especially considering their racist tendencies in the Scarlet Brotherhood, and even though the Aryan race is an obsolete concept IRL it works well for a fantasy world. The Bakluni have always seemed like the easiest analogy to make to a real world culture, as the "Arabian Nights" region of Oerth leaning into the fantasy elements of the Djinn, Efreet, City of Brass, etc.
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Post by Scott on Mar 8, 2022 17:39:42 GMT -5
I like the pre-migration Oeridians as pre-empire Franks. I see Heironeous as a Charlemagne type character. The Frankish culture of land being devided between sons and not passed in whole to the eldest fits the Heironeous/Hextor rivalry also.
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