TSR Games and GiantLands

[GRWelsh]

So, TSR Games is back and is getting some buzz. Randy from my gaming group brought it up on Saturday. I said I have a wait and see attitude. Ernie Gygax and some other old TSR employees are involved, so who knows. It isn't about hype, or who's involved, the logo, or nostalgia... It really comes down to what product they can put out which has to stand on its own. This seems to be related to the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum in Lake Geneva. So far, the only gaming product is "GiantLands" written by James Ward and Stephen Dinehart with Ernie Gygax which can be pre-ordered to ship August 2021. I couldn't find any reviews. It appears to be another incarnation of Gamma World but this time with a multiversal premise. There also seems to be some scandal about Ernie making comments on an interview that offended some people and as a result TSR Games is now banned from GenCon. Since Hasbro/WotC owns GenCon, one has to wonder: are they really offended, or are they just trying to shut down the buzz and possible competition?

[geneweigel]

I was chiming in to some of the drama on Knights and Knaves Alehouse and it eventually was closed:

knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17064

Either I'm not paying attention or I didn't see the ban part.

[GRWelsh]

Ernie did an interview on the "Live from the Bunker" YouTube Channel about a week ago titled: "The Return of TSR Games." Evidently, Ernie said some things people found offensive including this quote starting at 17:35: "TSR has been gone. There’s a ton of artists and game designers and people that play….. and recently they were dissed for being old-fashioned, possibly anti-modern trends, and enforcing, or even having the concepts of gender identity (laughs)." I watched the video, and it wasn't even clear to me what Ernie was saying in that sentence. TSR has been gone... Yes, it was bought and absorbed into WotC in 1997. The new TSR isn't the return of that old TSR, it's a new company but using the old logos and also started in Lake Geneva. Ernie said there are artists, game designers and players who were disrespected ("dissed") for being old-fashioned... But who are they and who was doing the disrespecting, and how is that related to TSR? And what was he saying about gender identity? My main criticism is about the lack of clarity. It was a somewhat rambling interview.

[geneweigel]

My days of "unite the clans" are way over. My goal now is put out stuff that speaks the story of what Gary was pushing to forward our fandom. Especially now, in the age of post-Gary, that most old TSR people are bogged down respecting "new" crap and not forwarding our fandom in any way whatsoever. When the time comes, when we start seeing quality merch from the old TSR staff of the standard of yore, I will be all for it but like Kuntz hinted that there is some kind of unspoken order of precedence and standing that outweighs quality output to the old TSR people and I can't support any of that at all.

Specifically, in regards to Ernie, he can say whatever he wants in my book. Like I said before, he has always taken the time to listen, never tried to make any wheeling deals with me and whatever that thing is that he is hiccuping on now (Raised money and no output) to me just needs fixing. In the meantime, its wait and see. Ernie will always be cool in my book.

[GRWelsh]

This controversy is a microcosm of a huge problem with our society. Almost everyone commenting on this is either kneejerk condemning or defending... There is no level headed discussion. It is all either "Ernie's a bigot" or "SJWs have gone too far!" And all over a few sentences that require interpretation and guesswork to make sense of. I don't know Ernie personally but based on interacting with him online and seeing him interviewed my impression is that he is a nice, well-meaning guy who inadvertently stuck his foot in his mouth. When doing an interview to promote your game company, why even bring up the gender identity issue? Who was being disrespected for having concepts of gender identity, and how is it relevant to TSR Games? That seemed to come out of nowhere without any context given, unless I'm missing something.

[geneweigel]

I don't know either but its this trend with "people coming in with bags of cash creating a bull in a china closet" syndrome all over again dating back to Gary and Rob's various endeavors. Putting this in perspective, Gary had refused to be filmed unless it was for something mainstream like a documentary or a show. So there is a certain mentality that I could never have (If some of the lost films that I made in the 1980s ever came out on the internet it would nuke the politically correct world forever.) and it seems Ernie doesn't have it either.

[geneweigel]

Jeff Dee and James Ward are cutting ties with Ernie over this. So that is a net sum plus.

Seriously, I guess from some video that I watched that they are saying Gary himself is involved based on something he said in the 80s but I can't find the quotes they are referring to.

[geneweigel]

I give up. I've searched around and can't find anything but more videos saying the same thing about some old off color remarks by Gary.

[Scott]

What a train wreck this turned into. Ernie made some comments that came off sounding like an old, out of touch, white guy, but nothing anti-anything that I could find. Some of his business associates made some stupid, unnecessarily combative comments that made things worse, and Ernie has been damned by association. Just when things were looking up for him.

[GRWelsh]

You summed it up perfectly. Ernie's comments could have been clarified, apologized for, and then brushed aside. But his statement on FB about how he didn't mean to hurt anyone was clumsily worded and didn't make things any better. And what really escalated it was his business associates doubling down with mean-spirited actions and comments when they could have just said, "Yes, we're a trans-friendly company and we welcome all gamers."

[geneweigel]

Yeah they've got to cool down and reapproach. I hope it works out for them.

[GRWelsh]

Did anyone get GiantLands? I saw that it came out, which is a positive. But I haven't got around to buying it yet... Looks a bit pricey. I'm struggling to grasp the concept... Sort of like GAMMA WORLD plus magic (Thundarr?) with the cause of the disaster being more ecological with the earth itself rebelling against what was done to it. The player characters are called "spirits" so I'm not sure what is going on here.

Also, it looks like they're relaunching STAR FRONTIERS again which seems like an odd choice since it was a niche game that was never a hit even back in the early 80's heyday of RPGs. A friend of mine had it, but a STAR FRONTIERS campaign never really got off the ground with us. I didn't find it to be that engaging. The world-building didn't interest me, neither did the race options (space monkeys, bugs and shmoos... really?) and neither did the mechanics. Also, it seemed the miss the boat on not having starship combat -- although that was addressed with the follow up KNIGHT HAWKS boxed set.

[geneweigel]

I don't think I consider myself a follower of Gamma World or Star Frontiers. I see that there is an Ernie associated ("with") adventure that seems reasonably priced ($14.99) CULT OF ABADDON but its not available. Maybe I should wait for a review.

[Scott]

Ernie's business associates are such cretins that I can't even follow his stuff. I'm interested in the Hobby Shop Dungeon, but that's it. I felt the same way about Star Frontiers, why bother, other than to cash in on nostalgia.

[geneweigel]

Yeah, I hope to make this as positive as possible. Same for Luke he seems to be in deeper murk than his brother though with all the face value rubberized D&D people. Quality. Quality. Keep it quality.

[GRWelsh]

Reading about GiantLands made me realize I want to play GAMMA WORLD again. Every time I get out my 1st edition boxed set -- which is one of my oldest gaming items -- I look through it and get inspired. I still think it is a great system for a one off or short campaign. I was recently listening to my audiobook version of DARK IS THE SUN by Philip Jose Farmer, which was came out about the same time as 1st edition and had to be the first book I read in that genre.

[geneweigel]

Last night, after reading this, I was digging through the various home made "quasi-games" that I've considered to fit in the niche for that future genre and I had open a file while I was half awake. When you're digging through piles of imaginative ideas you get a transition from likely to unlikely as your mind processes it becomes subconscious common cloth. However jumping into the deep dankness is unsettling. Old notes for "The Game of New York's Future" just really fried my brain looking at it this morning. Its too deep for a standalone.

[GRWelsh]

James Ward keeps returning to the concepts of generational ships and post-apocalyptic settings. I think a stumbling block for most gamers is that there isn't a single work of fiction that defines this genre in an instant and recognizable way. The "Thundarr the Barbarian" cartoon might be the best example. Even though it came out after the 1st edition of GAMMA WORLD, it captures that feeling of action, swords & sorcery, and lost science and civilization in a way that is appealing to gaming. I have to think Kirby's work on it was self-inspired by his KAMANDI: THE LAST BOY ON EARTH comics from the 1970's which seem like such a clear inspiration for GAMMA WORLD even down to the map of of the world showing regions controlled by mutant animals and humanoids.

[geneweigel]

I still think Kirby's worlds hold up if taken whole cloth as weird future visions. After the Eternals being normalized to current market trends, I don't see a future for it in Hollywood though which is probably a good thing.

What I liked about Kamandi was the inhuman faces and the Kirby tech. Once Kirby left and Kubert took over it dried up.

Recently, I saw that Kirby's Kamandi was a reapproach to an old idea of his Harvey Comics' ALARMING TALES #1 (1957) Kirby did a time travel story "THE LAST ENEMY!" all by himself which Pierre Boulle might have been inspired by when he wrote PLANET OF THE APES in 1963.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia reference:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamandi

And to a digitial scan of the comic:

digitalcomicmuseum.com/index.php?dlid=5671

Notice that he was originally going to just do a "Spiderman cover" for KAMANDI (i.e. hand over whole cloth idea then walk away) but since they cancelled FOREVER PEOPLE (1971-1972 which had an unresolved cliffhanger that was never resolved in that version of the DC universe.) he decided to further the original "ALARMING TALES: THE LAST ENEMY!" version of the future

[GRWelsh]

Good catch, Gene. I didn't know about THE LAST ENEMY! I agree that is a completely plausible inspiration for PLANET OF THE APES especially considering how the future animals react to meeting a man ("Imagine that! A man -- a real man!" "Fantastic!") and how future people want to get another atom bomb -- possible inspiration for the sequel BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES.