D4 City of Spiders, by Joseph Bloch

[GRWelsh]

Has anyone read this? It is a free download, and I like what I've read so far. It is more like a supplement to D3 than a sequel. Some highlights are that he perfectly replicates the font and layout from D3, and it has a lot of connections to the World of Greyhawk. The maps range from very similar to D3 to just okay. The recycled art and logos aren't great, but I'm not complaining since it is free. It somewhat answers the question of "How should an adventure in the Vault look like that brings the series to an appropriate conclusion?" i.e., confronting the followers of the Elder Elemental God, who were behind the giant attacks, rather than going after Lolth. In a way, it is like reading a DM's game notes to supplement D3 in particular for how he wants to present it to his players, by filling in details and setting up hooks. D3 is a masterpiece as is, but assumes a high level of DM creativity and skill.

[Scott]

I think Joe is on the right wavelength. I'll check it out. Just to see if there's some additional info I can use to help flesh out the city. And a confrontation with Ecladdra's house was my plan too.

[Scott]

Where did the notion that the EEG was imprisoned come from? Reading through the series again, I couldn't find anything. Was that one of those 'too similar to ToEE'
things that came up in online Q&A?

[GRWelsh]

Not sure, and I was wondering the same thing. I know EGG in later years defined them as two completely separate entities, but I've always wondered about that. At the very least, there does seem to have been cross-fertilization of ideas and imagery (fiery eye, inverted triangle or ziggurat, more of a primordial entity than a typical pantheonic deity, etc.).

[Scott]

I remember EGG once giving me some additional info on how he pictured the end of the series, and I know that the PCs summoning the EEG was a possibility, but I can't remember if it was by the PCs freeing it, or through some other summoning ritual. And if the PCs correctly did what they were supposed to do, they could also summon Lolth, or she would be summoned, and the two would neutralize each other.. DC mentions an EEG temple beyond Ecalvdra's estate, but I think Gary also mentioned another temple on an island in the Sunless Sea.

[Scott]

I haven't looked at it in forever, but I have the Menzoberranzan box set. I might dive into that for some layout ideas.

[GRWelsh]

I don't have it, but I read that it has a map of the compound for one of the noble houses. Something like that may be usable. I'm not a fan of Menzoberranzan since it never sat right with me that TSR lifted Erelhei-Cinlu from Oerth and dropped it into the Forgotten Realms, and just changed a few names and details. Their level of creativity was changing Lolth's name to Lloth! I can't think of Menzoberranzan without thinking of EGG getting ousted from the company which then took one of his creative masterpieces (the Vault of the Drow) and changed it just enough so they didn't need to give him credit. OTOH I'm a fan of taking good ideas from wherever you can get them for your personal campaign, and maybe there is something worthwhile in the Menzoberranzan boxed set... I'm just not familiar with it. I heard that the NIGHT BELOW boxed set is an excellent resource, and has a section detailing the Sunless Sea. But I haven't read that, either.

[Scott]

I have Night Below too, and there is an island with a temple to the EEG mentioned. That's another one I haven't looked at in years.

[Scott]

Just double checked Night Below. What I remembered as an island hinting at the EEG looks more like an island referencing Tharizdun, that I may have planned on using as the EEG island.

[GRWelsh]

Is NIGHT BELOW set on the World of Greyhawk? Is it a direct expansion of the Underworld as presented in the D series?

[Scott]

It’s officially generic.

[Scott]

Joe Bloch states in the D4 intro that there is no info provided for the players to determine what's going on with the drow. I kind of disagree. Gary was not great with details like this. I can't remember a single NPC in Hommlet that was listed as being able to provide any info that might steer the party to the Moathouse or the Temple in T1. Obviously it's there, but the burden was on the DM to make those decisions. Same with the D series. As early as G3 the party can find drow from a rival house that are trying to keep tabs on Eclavdra and her activities. The text doesn't explicitly say that Nedylene will provide info on what is going on, but I'm sure the encounter was added for just that purpose. Any drow, or some of the fire giants, that the party captures could be a source of this info. And there are a bunch of divination type spells a party in the correct level range should have access to, and were expected to use. I don't think you should have to hit the party over the head with info to get them moving in the right direction.

[GRWelsh]

There's plenty of evidence around, but the players need to ask questions and do some thinking on their own. The numerous brooches, medallions, etc. have hints about the Drow society that intelligent players can pick up on. Based on the quote below (D1, p. 2), after the giants are defeated the players are no longer on the same mission -- they aren't really obligated to pursue Eclavdra back to the Vault of the Drow and/or confront the Elder Elemental God:

Unlike the expeditions against the giants, no compulsion is placed upon adventurers to undertake this journey. While it is voluntary, there is also possible co-operation from avenging elves eager to wipe out the Drow.

The pregenerated characters in the back of D1-2 even reflect this theme with more elves in the party. Another quote by EGG gives a possible goal of the players (D2, p. 2):

Having put down a rising of giants, it was discovered that the motivating force behind their depredations was that of long-forgotten evil -- the Dark Elves. Determined to seek out these creatures, a body of doughty adventurers mounted and expedition to learn the strength of the Drow and bring retribution to them.

So, there's a shift in emphasis, from hunting down Eclavdra in particular, to the consideration of the Drow as a threat in general. I don't think this was accidental. The emphasis just went from a local conspiracy behind giant attacks to something much bigger. I've always imagined it as surface creatures having a reaction like "The Dark Elves of legend still exist? We must learn more about this threat, and if possible bring a reckoning to them!"

[Scott]

The "avenging elves" and the pre-gens always seemed a bit questionable to me, since marching a bunch of surface elves into the Vault seems like suicide.

I think the motivation depends on how much of an imminent threat you want to make Eclavdra, or the drow in general. My thoughts were to have information available to reveal that House Eilserv was behind the raids and they still have desire to establish some control over a portion of the surface world to increase their power in the Vault. So the PCs should try to collect info on the drow in general, and deal with House Eilserv if possible. If I run Q1 it will not be related to the rest of the series. With the similarities to Tharizdun and ToEE, I don't think I will pursue any extended EEG material.

[GRWelsh]

Dec 18, 2020 13:51:13 GMT -5 Scott said:

The "avenging elves" and the pre-gens always seemed a bit questionable to me, since marching a bunch of surface elves into the Vault seems like suicide.

EGG seems to have anticipated that objection, which is one I had as well. Won't traditionally good races marching into the homeland of an evil race incur instant attack, or at the very least, close scrutiny? EGG's answer seems to be that isn't necessarily always the case, from the quotes here (D2, p. 10):

... translation of an account of an Elf who escaped from the homeland of the Dark Elves. The fragment says:

"and these degenerate filth continue to consort with all manner of foul things and d((smear destroys several words)) but this does not mean that they are particularly watchful for trespassers. Any wearing the cloak of sickening ((another smear here)) can move freely about, and the merchant clans and noble houses employ all sorts of servants and slaves who roam through the black and debauched City of ((smear) -ing the broaches. Most of the these abominations worship the disgusting creature they call the "Mother of Lusts" and if I could only ... ((the fragment ends here))"

The Kuo-Toans use this to emphasize the badness of the Drow who do not worship the Sea Mother.

And here (D3, p. 3):

Because of the chaotic nature of the Dark Elves, their continual feuding, and the degenerate nature of the city dwellers, there is no reason why a clever group cannot successfully muck around, harry merchants (and possibly even nobles) and not attract undue attention so long as they do not attempt to organize the escaped slave groups for open warfare against the Drow. The threat of a general uprising of slaves will certainly bring all of the Drow into full cooperation, and that means the adventurers will likely meet their doom.

And here (D3, p. 11):

All traffic allowed into the Vault is ordered to report to the tower. It is the custom house and checkpoint for all aliens entering the Drow homeland. All with medallions are relieved of the devices, questioned briefly regarding the purpose of their visit (trade, sport, gambling, learning, or whatever) and issued a cloak which glows a brilliant lime green infravisually. Such individuals are permitted to move freely to and within the city of the north or even wander about the Vault anywhere south of the great river -- at their own risk, of course. Any alien taken without medallion or cloak is instantly slain; those without cloaks beyond this place are either enslaved or slain according to the whim of the Drow. There are exceptions. Aliens with a broach of one of the merchant clans or noble houses are allowed to keep their special pins and need not wear a green cloak either, but they will be required to display their special pass (the broach) whenever requested, and woe to the adventurer who fails to have a glib tongue if the interrogator happens to be of the clan or house of the pass (or worse still an enemy of that clan or house).

So, while there is danger, I'd call that giving the players a pretty long rope with which to hang themselves with. I still think surface elves -- especially in groups that are heavily armed -- will stick out. In the Vault, all surface elves seem to be either slaves or escaped slaves. In the city, there are human parties, and thieves who can be human, dwarf, gnome, half-elf and even elf -- but only when the elf is half Drow. But I guess if you play it as written, as long as each has the proper cloak, medallion and/or broach, even a party of all surface elves can roam around at will, subject to the limitations cited above.

But, yeah, you couldn't have a party of avenging elves marching around shouting "We are Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, and Legolas, here to bring a reckoning to the Dark Elvenfolk!" That wouldn't last long.

[GRWelsh]

Joe Bloch's City of Spiders should have been titled D3A instead of D4, since this is a supplement or expansion onto an existing module. D4 should have been reserved for "Encounter Area to be designed by DM or in a Forthcoming Module" or "Major Encounter Area as described above" on the large scale hex map in D1. Those multi-hex encounter areas could be: a city of illithids, an aboleth lair, a kingdom of ghouls and ghasts or other undead, a realm of intelligent beetles or fungi, a land of stone giants, or detailing of a port or island on the Sunless Sea. Personally, I like the idea of dinosaurs being in the Sunless Sea, because Jules Verne had them in the subterranean sea in JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH -- I've always thought of encounter area X2-28 as "Port Gräuben"!

[geneweigel]

I just looked at it and its a good expression for an easy grab while playing D3 to benefit play. The old adage "I don't think he needs to play blue" comes to mind while reading this. I was feeling okay until I saw the third edition style map. That said without pouring through it tightly it looks like a good supplement.

I need to still finish that add-on for D series from years ago and once the T1-4 add-on is in the can, I'm gong to dig it out so hopefully this will all be done by 2021.

[GT]

As to EEG being imprisoned, Gary mentioned post-MYTHUS that he envisioned him being imprisoned in a different star system. There were three EEG's [hence, the trisected triangle...]; but only one was active on Oerth. This one was based on Khalk'ru (the Kraken) from A. Merritt's "Dwellers In The Mirage", so any solid ideas can be gleaned from info given in that story. Gary never named it in AD&D; but it resurfaced as Qhalk'ru [an Atlantlan deity] in Dangerous Journeys and as Khalk'ru or something similar in Lejendary Adventures; again as a deitific force, and revealed to be worshipped by the Illithid-analogs of that game system.

[GT]

I found this archived answer from the Pied Piper boards from Gary responding to somebody asking how he would have expanded the Sunless Sea boat ride/Lolth parts of the D-series... (the--ahem-- so-called "horrible" puns were mine...)

"Good Grief!
Not only questions going back 15 to 20 plus years in time, but some horrible puns. Blech! I feel soiled adding to this thread...
Had I done Q1, it would have been far more difficult to win through the adventure, and the tone would have been far darker and brooding. Lolth to me is one very vile and scary demoness and not given to mechanical devices and steam power.
As a matter of fact, I planned on putting in a handy device--what I don't recall, if I ever had a specific one in mind--to manage to pull the PCs' chestnuts out of the fire in a grim situation. It would utilize power from the EEG, drive off Lolth and her minions, but in so doing free the EEG from some of his fetters, so that in checking the demoness, the party would call back to a more active role, the malign Elder Elemental God, an entity worse than she.
More I really don't recall. Same with the ToEE material. Frank was riding me hard about completing it, and I had a whole now company to run out on the West Coast, that with a load of problems--like getting more that the cartoon show going. Here again, though, I had planned to put in triggers that would enable the EEG to come back in some form, albeit a relatively weak one."

[GT]

There was a discussion of similarity between T2 and Q1, and how the EEG played in. This was my response:

"As I'm fond of bringing up, Gary had one of the Elder Elemental God shrines in the lowest recesses of the original Temple, the fun being: "What if Zuggtmoy was released and the aspect of the EEG was summoned?" However, due to time constraints, Gary didn't have Frank develop that aspect of the Temple... and Robilar never got to it 'cause he was too busy listening to Zuggy say: "Hey, you seem like a "fun guy"... they must've broken the "mold" when they made you! Why don't you join me!" Don't look for a "morel" in the preceding "rot", but at least there is no "smut" either. (Unless maybe Robilar did --ahem-- join Zuggy...Ewwwww!!"

Horrible?? More like "Classic"! (well, it was 2002...)