Magic-user spells beyond 1st level (BTB AD&D)

[GRWelsh]

About spells magic-users start with at 1st level, the DMG states (p. 39):

If your campaign is particularly difficult, you may wish to allow choice automatically. You can furthermore allow an extra defensive or miscellaneous spell, so that the character begins with 5 spells.

Later on the same page, it states:

Spells Beyond Those At Start:

Naturally, magic-user player characters will do their utmost to acquire books of spells and scrolls in order to complete their own spell books. To those acquired, the magic-user will add 1 (and ONLY 1) spell when he or she actually gains an experience level (q.v.). Therefore, most will be frantically attempting to purchase or cozen spells from non-player character magic-users, or even from other player character magic-users.

Does it specify anywhere in the core AD&D rules (PH/DMG) that magic-users get to choose the spell they add when they gain an experience level? I've always assumed they could, and played it that way -- but is that just a common house rule? The upside doing it that way is more player choice and access to better spells, but the downside is most lists of magic-user spells memorized for the day end up looking the same: sleep, magic-missile, web, fireball, lightning bolt... i.e., the "old stand-bys." I love those spells as much as anybody (and I love magic-users in general so the intent is not to 'nerf' the class), but if magic-users add their 1 spell upon leveling up randomly, that would encourage memorization of spells not used as much and thus create greater diversity among spell lists and possibly more creative play (at least until they can find, buy or copy the 'best' spells). It also seems to resonate better with some further comments on this page in the DMG:

... the ramifications of spell scarcity are bound to aid your campaign, and not only with regard to excess treasure and magic items. A scroll of but a single spell becomes highly meaningful to the magic-users in the game, especially when it is of a spell heretofore unknown. The acquisition of a book of spells from someplace in the dungeons or wildernesses of the campaign is a benison beyond price! PC and NPC alike will take great pains to guard scrolls and spell books. Magic-users will haunt dusty libraries and peruse musty tomes in the hopes of gleaning but a single incantation to add to their store of magic.

Thoughts?

[Scott]

I think it can be tough for players of low level 1E magic-users to be useful/engaged when they can choose spells. Being stuck with a lis of duds would make it worse. Having a problem that could be solved by mending Spell would be a nice change, being stuck with only mending and affect normal fires etc. for a couple levels would be a drag.

[GRWelsh]

It's true that some spells are simply duds. But some of my favorite moments are when players creatively use spells in ways no one anticipated.

[GRWelsh]

When magic-users add a new spell from gaining an experience level, do they have to roll to learn it or do they automatically know it? If the former, do you let them pick another spell until they learn one? How do you handle spells characters failed to learn? Are they never able to learn them, or can they try again next experience level?

Also, there seems to be a different system of learning spells in the PH, with minimums and maximums involved. Has anyone ever made use of that system? It seems more similar to what was presented in Holmes Basic D&D, with players just going down the list or perhaps choosing spells, attempting to learn them, and not stopping until they hit their minimum number. That seems completely different from what is presented in the DMG.

[Scott]

Yes, I make them roll to learn. If they fail the only way they could try again is if their intelligence goes up.

Yeah, that's one of the inconsistencies that you see because 1E was written and published over years, rather than being written all at once. There are a ton of ideas that disappeared, or were never fully explained, or contradict other stuff in the same book.

[geneweigel]

As I play it, when a player plays the magic-user to the hilt and roleplays a studious lifestyle then one can get a "free" spell going up.

Otherwise, the BTB would be trade of magic items as a "coin" to get things of value from magic-users (As opposed to the cleric's cash prices). From DMG (1979) pages 103-104:

Use of a henchman’s valuables, such as a magic item, should be based on the holding of some
equal or better object of similar nature, certainly one usable by the henchman,
and the promise of some payment in addition - such as a minor
item of magic! (See also ACQUISITION OF MAGIC-USER SPELLS.)

and

Now old ap-Owen is rather testy,
for he was in the middle of an experiment which is now absolutely ruined,
and must be begun all over again, just because this stupid sword-swinger
managed to convince Mul-the-lackwit that something was more important
than a wizard’s spell research! Well, this fellow Celowin had better have a
good reason for interruption, and further, the pay had better be
good . . . . Celowin will have to pay through the nose, in cash and in
magic items, to get the magic-user to turn stone to flesh once again. But
suppose Celowin has no item which Llewellyn could use? The wizard will
take something he cannot use personally, for he undoubtedly has all sorts
of henchmen and hirelings who can employ these things, not to mention
the possibility of trading or selling. In no event will money ever serve to
replace magic items! Furthermore, if no magic is available, then a geas
can be laid to get some!

and

When non-cleric spell casters are hired, they will likewise consider alignment
and personal risk in setting fees. Whether casting spells or using a
magical device supplied to them by the party, there will always be a substantial
charge. Should any of good, particularly lawful good, alignment
complain, note that ”the worker is worthy of his hire” and similar
Scriptural quotes might be called for in order to silence complaints. If
death results due to payment failure, point out that the player has”gone to
his (or her) reward” - how can that be bad? In the event that the cleric
would actually further the cause of the deity and alignment by doing the
service, payment can be deferred until the party has the wherewithal to do
so; however, this deferral will certainly adjust the fee upwards, or possibly
require o normal fee and special service from the party in addition.
To forestall the charming of spell casters in order to get them to perform
services of this nature, note that such characters will always be 25% likely
to cast a spell as close as possible to the opposite of that he or she is
instructed to cast. This is due to the befuddled state of mind and the psychic
duress of the charm spell operating on the individual’s mind.
It is also worth mentioning that NPC spell casters are NOT going to take
continual interruptions too kindly, even if the party so doing is of the same
faith and alignment and pays well. At some point the spell caster will get
fed up with it and begin raising rates. (The players-should not rely upon
those outside their group to keep their members viable. They must learn
self-reliance or else pay the price one way or another.)

[GRWelsh]

BTB, the magic-user does add a spell when gaining an experience level. That's not in question, since it is stated clearly in the DMG. The things in question are: whether the magic-user gets to choose the spell, if he has roll to learn it based on his intelligence, and what happens if he fails (i.e., does he get to try again with other spells until he succeeds?). Is it specified in the AD&D rules that if a character fails to learn a spell, he cannot attempt to learn it again unless he goes up in intelligence? If so, that could tie in nicely with the aging rules which modify ability scores... Some magic-users could "age into" a spell ("I never could make sense of that spell until I got old, when it was no longer nearly as useful...").

About the other spell learning system, since it is so similar to what is described in Holmes Basic D&D (1977) my guess is that it was the system explained to Holmes by EGG and/or being used in play at that time. The % chance to learn spells, minimum and maximum tables all first appear in Supplement I: Greyhawk (1976), and are exactly the same in Holmes Basic D&D (1977). They were carried over into the PH (1978) but with many changes and some additions, including a minimum intelligence of 9 to be a magic-user. The system presented in the DMG (1979) with each magic-user starting out with four or five spells, including read magic automatically, and other spells rolled randomly or chosen from lists of offensive, defensive, and miscellaneous spells seems to be "new" to that time. In Moldvay Basic D&D (1981) the % chance to learn spells, minimum and maximum tables are gone, replaced by a new system as well (p. B16): "Each magic-user and elf has a spell book for the spells that he or she has learned. A first level character will only have one spell (a first level spell) in the spell book. A second level character will have two spells (both first level) in the spell book; a third level character will have three spells (two first level spells and one second level spell) in the spell book. The DM may choose which spells a character has in the book, or may allow the player to select them."

I first played D&D in Holmes Basic D&D but didn't truly understand the rules until I got my own set in the summer of 1981 which was Moldvay Basic, and that is the first system I remember using for starting with and gaining spells. Within a year, I was buying the AD&D books and had switched over to the DMG spell learning system which is what I've used ever since. I don't believe I've ever used the minimum and maximum system, which seems to have been the standard in the late 70's for OD&D, Basic D&D and early AD&D.

[Scott]

They way I used to handle it was to have the players roll to know down the list until they reached their minimum, but that didn't mean they had the spell. It was basically just pre-rolling to know before actually leveling, finding a scroll, etc. In earlier editions of the game, where the spell lists were much smaller, the minimum # could be a factor, but by the time 1E came out it was very unlikely. So I just stopped. The Max # is still a factor though.

[GRWelsh]

"Oh no," the evil necromancer said. "Look who it is: Masric the Mender! We're in trouble now, boys!" He looked around at his gang of black armored knights and half-orc assassins. "Tell us, Masric, what spells do you have memorized today?"

"Mending four times, locate object, shatter and feign death," Masric replied.

"Scary stuff," the necromancer made a horrified face. The others laughed.

"Actually, I -- uh -- I have a broken link in my chain mail," one of the black armored knights said. "I was wondering if perhaps Masric might fix it."

"What?!?" the evil necromancer exclaimed. "Masric is a good-aligned magic-user! He's our mortal enemy."

"He can't be that dangerous if you're always making fun of him and calling him 'Masric the Mender.' Besides, we have him outnumbered so what choice does he have?"

"Sure, I'll mend your chain link," Masric said. He cast the mending spell, and the link in the chainmail was good as new.

"I, as well, have a request of Masric," one of the half-orc assassins said. "You mentioned the locate object spell? I am in charge of the prison cells, and I have to admit I lost my key-ring... Perhaps you might cast that spell to help me find it?"

"Sure, I can do that," Masric said agreeably.

"This is preposterous... But now that you mention the feign death spell," the necromancer added. "There is an ogress on the fourth level of the dungeon that I slept with recently, and she won't leave me alone and is coming to visit tonight. If she could be persuaded I was dead, then she might leave me alone... Masric, would you mind casting feign death on me?"

Masric's grin was wide. "Let's talk price."

[grodog]

This is how I do it, Gary:

MU/Illusionist Knowing Spells: MUs/Illusionists/Incantatrixes/Witches/Necromancers/Savants/et al roll for chance to learn spells for all spells gained after initial starting spells from 1st level; if Int is increased and when level increases, PCs may roll again for spells that they did not learn successfully in the past; as part of training costs, MUs/etc. are permitted to add one new spell into their spell book for each increase in casting capacity (going from 4th to 5th level MU nets the PC a new spell in their spellbook for 1st and 3rd levels; these must be diced to learn normally)

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

Allan, if the character tries to learn the spell he gets from leveling up and fails, do you let him try to learn another spell until he succeeds? Or does he only get one attempt each time he levels up?

[grodog]

Aug 26, 2020 9:42:35 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

Allan, if the character tries to learn the spell he gets from leveling up and fails, do you let him try to learn another spell until he succeeds? Or does he only get one attempt each time he levels up?

Gary: since I include this specific "spell(s) learning time" as part of the training process, that's a freebie/gimmie while they're training. So they get that spell in their spellbook, and if they fail to learn it, at least it's inscribed already for future learning (based on the luck of the dice).

If the MU failed the roll during training, and still wanted to spend the time to learn a different spell, I'd allow them to do so, but it would take some more "time off" I think. How much more, I'm not sure offhand---perhaps a day per 3 or 4 levels of the spell to learn/master from a mentor, and to scribe it in their spellbooks (at the usual cost of training [prorated] and magical ink for Write).

I haven't had to deal with this yet during the current crop of campaigns, so I can do some playtesting in the near-future, I imagine

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

Yes, the time it takes to memorize spells already known is broken down in the DMG, but I don't believe the time it takes to learn new spells is given. The read magic spell allows one to read for 1 round, or 1 minute, per level of the caster. The way I've always played it is that casting read magic 'deciphers' a single magical work (book, scroll, etc.) for the character who cast it (only), but that doesn't mean he fully comprehended or 'learned' the whole thing in the duration of the spell. A more restrictive interpretation could require multiple castings of read magic to get through larger works. For example, a 2nd level magic-user finds a large, moldy tome -- a spellbook! He opens it to begin reading and sees yellowing parchment densely packed with indecipherable script. He casts read magic and viewing through his clear crystal, amazingly, the indecipherable script seems to rearrange itself into characters he can comprehend... or perhaps, the script doesn't change but his mind becomes rearranged to now understand the script... He's not sure which. In either case, the spell only lasts for 2 minutes, and after reading but a few pages, the script he didn't get to yet remains indecipherable. But the pages already read remain legible.