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Post by geneweigel on Mar 12, 2021 8:18:21 GMT -5
I like it when an "Advanced" (Pro-Gygax game and experienced) player plays thief. Especially if they are Vance fans.
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Post by Scott on Mar 12, 2021 8:37:42 GMT -5
There is definitely something that attracts a certain personality type to the class. In addition to the pickpocketing examples Gary provided, almost every thief PC, after the rest of the party has spent 15 - 30 minutes at the inn collecting info on the local dungeon and decided to leave, will want to spend another hour at the inn talking to all of the customers about completely useless topics. If you've ever watched What We Do in the Shadows, the rest of the party is like Collin the energy vampire's co-workers after he gets on a roll.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 12, 2021 10:36:00 GMT -5
There should be more lesser quality locks at lower levels that give thieves bonuses to their rolls. Same with traps, it should be a lot easier to detect the falling rock trap the kobolds set on the fake door they put in their lair than the poison needle trap on the guild master of thieves personal safe. Great idea, and I have actually been doing that. Some traps are clumsily made or no longer work properly, and some locks are crudely made, old, damaged or rusted and such things are easier to find, disarm, and open. Likewise some concealed and secret doors, compartments, loose blocks, etc. aren't as well hidden as others. I don't consider this fudging or a DM cheat as it is logical extension of the world. And there are still plenty of save or die traps around...
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Post by GRWelsh on May 23, 2021 12:53:17 GMT -5
Is there a rule about how much XP a character can gain at one time? For example, if a 1st level cleric gets a staff of striking (6000 XP), does he go up to 2nd level and just short of 3rd level? If so, how far short, exactly? The DMG p. 86 states: "Under no circumstances can a character gain additional experience points by any means until he or she actually acquires the higher level through the required training/study course. Thus, a character who successfully adventures and gains experience points which not only equal a new level but are almost sufficient to gain yet a second such level, cannot opt to forego the period of training and study necessary to go up a level in favor of gaining a few more points and training and studying for two levels at once. ONCE A CHARACTER HAS POINTS WHICH ARE EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE MINIMUM NUMBER NECESSARY TO MOVE UPWARDS IN EXPERIENCE LEVEL, NO FURTHER EXPERIENCE POINTS CAN BE GAINED UNTIL THE CHARACTER ACTUALLY GAINS THE NEW LEVEL." One could infer from this that the cleric can get up to 3000 XP, or one point short of the XP needed for 3rd level, and cannot gain any more XP until he trains for 2nd level.
Another question is around reading and writing. Languages characters can speak are defined, but not whether they can read or write. Of course, we know magic-users can read magic, at least, and clerics can read because there are clerical scrolls, and thieves can begin to read languages at 4th level and above. The house rule I've been using is that fighters generally cannot read unless it is justified by their background and/or high intelligence, but thieves, clerics and magic-users can and those with higher intelligence can read and write multiple languages.
Are there BTB rules for a character's chance to fall into a pit? In Appendix A under Table VII for Trick/Trap in the DMG, p. 172, the various examples of pits each say 3 in 6 to fall in. The only other reference I could find for AD&D was in module S1, in the description of area 3 (100% - 1%/per point of Dex up to 12, -2% per point of Dex above 12). For Basic D&D there are very different rules for this in B2 at the entrance to the kobold lair (3 in 6 for those in the front rank if not probing ahead, 1 in 6 for those in the second rank if close to the front rank and the front rank has already fallen in). Do you guys use any of these rules mechanics or do you have a house rule? I think in the past I have occasionally used something as simple as a Dex check with a modifier. It should obviously differ depending circumstances such as if someone is running/charging, advancing slowly, probing ahead, etc.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2021 7:37:38 GMT -5
It's not in print that I can remember, but Gary told me the rule he used was no more that 100 points short of gaining two levels. So a 1st level cleric would end up with 2,901 XPs.
The assumed is they can also read and write. This came up with EGG on a discussion about barbarians where is specifically calls out the fact that they can not read and write.
I normally use the B3 rule, but I have converted to d20 and used the Dex reaction modifier: 10 in 20 for the first rank, 3 in 20 for the 2nd rank.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 24, 2021 9:45:30 GMT -5
The reason I made the house rule about fighters not normally being able to read comes from a few quotes in the PH: "At 9th level (through 20th level) of experience, paladins gain the ability to employ cleric spells (q. v.). They may never use scrolls of spells, however, except those normally usable by fighters" (p. 22). "At 9th level rangers gain limited magic-user spell ability, as with druidic spell ability. Rangers cannot read druid or magic-user spells from magic scrolls in any event. At 10th level (Ranger Lord), rangers are able to employ all non-written magic items which pertain to clairaudience, clairvoyance, ESP, and telepathy" (p. 24). Counter to that is the quote in the DMG (p. 128): "Protection scrolls may be read by any class or race of character even without a magic spell." I interpreted this to mean that fighters (as well as paladins and rangers) do not normally know how to read and write, but the few who do may be able to use something like a protection scroll as long as it is written in a language they can read. But scrolls are generally going to go to non-fighter classes for examination and use.
What do you think are the "non-written magic items which pertain to clairaudience, clairvoyance, ESP, and telepathy"? The potions of clairaudience, clairvoyance, and ESP do not indicate any class restrictions, and neither does the medallion of ESP or the helm of telepathy. It may be referring to the crystal ball, which is restricted to magic-users and is a clairvoyant magic item with versions that also have clairaudience, ESP or telepathy (DMG, p. 141). Are there any other magic items this may be referring to?
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Post by GRWelsh on May 24, 2021 9:51:48 GMT -5
If someone finds a staff of striking, how do you guys usually handle it? Do you have the command words engraved on the staff itself, and if not, how do you give your players the opportunity to find out what the command words are? I assume no command word is needed to strike using 1 charge -- you just swing it and hit somebody it it expends a charge -- but you do need specific command words to expend either 2 or 3 charges. When running T1, if the players get Lareth's staff of striking, how do you handle this? It is usable by either a cleric or magic-user. Would the command words be written in common, an archaic language (requiring someone who learned that language to read it, or a thief to make a read languages check, or for someone to cast comprehend languages), or magic runes (requiring read magic)?
Also, do you only have a charge expended when it hits, or is it every time an attack is attempted? What about when a staff of striking is swung against a non-living object? Could a wielder expend 2 or 3 charges to try to force open a door, break some chains or something like that, more effectively? What happens if a wielder says a command word and isn't in combat or withholds his attack -- does that still use up charges? The rules say it can be recharged, but how. If a player character wants to get his staff of striking recharged, how would you DM that?
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2021 11:28:05 GMT -5
I can't think of any other items, but I believe crystal balls was the intent as a connection to Aragorn and the palantir.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2021 11:30:15 GMT -5
I think the spell scroll restriction was to limit the spall casting capabilities of those upper level fighter types.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2021 11:34:50 GMT -5
I have never had the command words engraved on items, but it's not a bad idea. If they take it off of somebody else they can charm, coerce, ESP, etc the info out of him. With magic-users I usually have the command words for their items written down in their spell books too. Other classes may have them stashed on a parchment somewhere. If it's something that they get from some monster hoard they usually have to have to pay some NPC to get the info for them using some mysterious, off screen, NPC only method.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2021 11:46:26 GMT -5
With a staff of striking, only on a hit. In the past I've only had it useful against living targets, but Gary's mention of blasting Lockes open with magic missiles in G3 has me re-considering. I've never had a PC get to the point where they could make items besides scrolls and potions, so recharging is also handled by some NPC using a mysterious, off screen, NPC only method.
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Post by GRWelsh on May 24, 2021 12:47:34 GMT -5
What was the cost for NPC's to research command words and recharge items? I thought we addressed this in another thread somewhere, but I can't find it. I vaguely recall thinking that recharging an item from 0 back to maximum should cost less than the GP of buying the item new, but perhaps not that much less. So, recharging a staff of striking back up to the full 25 charges should cost no more than 15,000 gp. I was thinking somewhere between 100 and 500 gp per charge... Or maybe in exchange for a quest or service.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2021 13:19:19 GMT -5
The Book of Marvelous Magic has a Slate and Libram of identification. I assume many of the NPC casters in "town" use these, but the PCs don't know. Dropping a libram with a few pages left as a treasure is probably a good idea to help get new parties off the ground without killing them with paying for identifying magic. When paying, the price will fluctuate based on how familiar/friendly the PCs are with the NPC, or if they're working for an NPC. Just rolling up to an unknown NPC wizard will probably cost 1,000 GP per request.
Recharging depends on the value. As a starting point I divide the value by the maximum number of charges.
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Post by grodog on May 25, 2021 21:09:51 GMT -5
Is there a rule about how much XP a character can gain at one time? "[snip] ONCE A CHARACTER HAS POINTS WHICH ARE EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE MINIMUM NUMBER NECESSARY TO MOVE UPWARDS IN EXPERIENCE LEVEL, NO FURTHER EXPERIENCE POINTS CAN BE GAINED UNTIL THE CHARACTER ACTUALLY GAINS THE NEW LEVEL." One could infer from this that the cleric can get up to 3000 XP, or one point short of the XP needed for 3rd level, and cannot gain any more XP until he trains for 2nd level. I allow PCs to bank a full level ahead incrementally, not just through a cash-cow XP gain from a big monster or magic item. So the 0 XP Level 1 PC could go to 1 XP shy of level 3 without wasting any XP in my games. The exact amount would, of course, vary from class to class. Another question is around reading and writing. Languages characters can speak are defined, but not whether they can read or write. Of course, we know magic-users can read magic, at least, and clerics can read because there are clerical scrolls, and thieves can begin to read languages at 4th level and above. The house rule I've been using is that fighters generally cannot read unless it is justified by their background and/or high intelligence, but thieves, clerics and magic-users can and those with higher intelligence can read and write multiple languages. I like to use languages in my games, including runes, and try to make them an important aspect of play, so I assume PCs can read all languages that they speak. In the past I've experimented with varying skill levels of languages (in particular for those 18 INT MUs, high-INT demi-humans, and bards/druids who all seem to be able to speak with everyone they meet), but decided that level of granularity probably wasn't terribly worthwhile and abandoned it. All PCs and PCs roll on the DMG NPC table for languages known, at random, and I like that---it's another spark for details about character history/family history/whatever. I also use human languages from Greyhawk, so rolls of 86+ end up as Ancient Suloise, Flan, Ferral, or whatever's appropriate to the campaign/region. I also like magical runes and glyphs in play too, both for general magicalness in the setting (GH Folio/Box), and sometimes scripts/runes/whatever specific to classes (Druids/Bards, Illusionists, Thieves in addition to the usual glyphs/symbol spells for MUs/Clerics), as well as scripts that are so ancient and/or magical that they aren't automatically readable via Comp Lang/Read Lang (requiring a higher-level caster, or knowledge of within a related family of languages/alphabets, etc.). We recently did some noodling on this semi-relatedly over on K&KA at knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16989 if you're curious. Are there BTB rules for a character's chance to fall into a pit? In Appendix A under Table VII for Trick/Trap in the DMG, p. 172, the various examples of pits each say 3 in 6 to fall in. The only other reference I could find for AD&D was in module S1, in the description of area 3 (100% - 1%/per point of Dex up to 12, -2% per point of Dex above 12). For Basic D&D there are very different rules for this in B2 at the entrance to the kobold lair (3 in 6 for those in the front rank if not probing ahead, 1 in 6 for those in the second rank if close to the front rank and the front rank has already fallen in). Do you guys use any of these rules mechanics or do you have a house rule? I think in the past I have occasionally used something as simple as a Dex check with a modifier. It should obviously differ depending circumstances such as if someone is running/charging, advancing slowly, probing ahead, etc. In addition to whatever chances you decide for PCs to fall into a pit once it's open, I usually roll for the chances for a pit to open, too: they're not always 100% IMC (in particular for variable pits ), so PCs may pass them once safely and then find them the hard way later, when they're in a rush If someone finds a staff of striking, how do you guys usually handle it? Do you have the command words engraved on the staff itself, and if not, how do you give your players the opportunity to find out what the command words are? I assume no command word is needed to strike using 1 charge -- you just swing it and hit somebody it it expends a charge -- but you do need specific command words to expend either 2 or 3 charges. When running T1, if the players get Lareth's staff of striking, how do you handle this? It is usable by either a cleric or magic-user. Would the command words be written in common, an archaic language (requiring someone who learned that language to read it, or a thief to make a read languages check, or for someone to cast comprehend languages), or magic runes (requiring read magic)? The Moldvay/Cook/Marsh B/X rules had a Striking spell for clerics in there I think, but I've historically not imported that into my AD&D games. I would allow an NPC cleric of a martial deity to probably learn it, in particular for staff-wielding gods like St. Cuthbert, The Shalm, Incabulos, etc., and allow them to recharge a Staff of Striking too. Sometimes I inscribe command words on devices, sometimes I don't. Sometimes there are magical runes (a la Folio vs. Boxed Set) that will help with IDing command words or functions of a device, sometimes not Also, do you only have a charge expended when it hits, or is it every time an attack is attempted? What about when a staff of striking is swung against a non-living object? Could a wielder expend 2 or 3 charges to try to force open a door, break some chains or something like that, more effectively? What happens if a wielder says a command word and isn't in combat or withholds his attack -- does that still use up charges? The rules say it can be recharged, but how. If a player character wants to get his staff of striking recharged, how would you DM that? I like the staff of striking, rod of smiting, et al (I allow improved versions of them too: Staff of Smiting that's not charged, for example) to have a bit more flexibility about when you do/don't use the charges, and since stating a command word is pretty much a free action/1 segment activation, I allow them to only use the charge when they hit. I haven't had anyone ever attempt to use those weapons to break a door, lock, etc., but would probably permit it if it wasn't in the middle of combat. What was the cost for NPC's to research command words and recharge items? I thought we addressed this in another thread somewhere, but I can't find it. Like Scott, I charge a proportional amount per charge, generally. Or maybe in exchange for a quest or service. Always a good idea! Allan.
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jun 27, 2021 10:02:24 GMT -5
I picked up Trent Foster's "Heroic Legendarium' from DriveThru RPG... it has quite a few House Rule ideas in it. I lately had to do a lot of rulings on the monk and the illusionist class, because my group has both of those. There are many attempted "abuses", so some precision was required for the rules. To wit: PH, pg.10: As no comprehensive system for disbelieving phantasmal and spectral forces was ever set forth, the following table of Intelligence bonuses can be used to save versus Spell for Monsters, PC’s and NPC’s:
Phan. Imp. Phan. Spec. INT Force Force Force 0 n/a n/a n/a 1 +4 +3 +2 2 – 4 +3 +2 +1 5 – 7 +3 +2 +0 8 – 10 +2 +1 +0 11 – 12 +3 +1 +0 13 – 14 +3 +2 +0 15 – 16 +4 +2 +1 17 – 18 +4 +3 +1 19 n/a +3 +2 20 n/a n/a +3
n/a: creature is un-intelligent; such as a skeleton, zombie, golem, jelly, etc. or immune due to high INT 1= animal intelligence; 2 – 4 = semi-intelligent (from: Deities & Demigods; pg. 7 and Dragon #66; pg. 33). Note that for PC’s and NPC’s a Wisdom adjustment might also apply (PH; pg. 11); and if the illusion is not out of place and is accurate in portrayal, there could possibly be no saving throw (unless viewer is warned by another).
PH, pg. 75: The caster of Phantasmal Force must be familiar with the construct/creature/force that they are emulating with the phantasm, or the recipients will gain a bonus to save ranging from +1 to +4; depending on incorrect presentation as well as missing features (sound, smell, tactile, temperature), etc. Note that a Phantasmal Force spell used to duplicate an attack spell such as magic missile, fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold, etc. will cause no damage to creatures who disbelieve this type of effect, and will merely stun creatures for 1 – 2 rounds (no action possible) if they fail to disbelieve the attack [although they will initially believe that they took damage]. The line: “will affect all believing creatures which view the phantasmal force, even to the extent of suffering damage from phantasmal missiles or from falling into an illusory pit full of sharp spikes” refers to the belief of the affected creatures that they took damage; not that they actually took damage… this spell is effectively a silent hologram – potentially terrifying to behold, but with no substance. That said; if a phantasmal attack upon human, demi-human or humanoid is believed and the damage would be certainly fatal [falling into a 50' deep pit filled with spikes, a huge dragon breathing at close range onto the victim(s), a falling slab of rock, etc.; the DM can require a system shock roll [Constitution chart] to see if the victim dies from fright-induced shock (the DM will have to adjudicate the CON value of the creature involved). Also, note that creatures either totally believe or totally disbelieve—no other actions are possible for that round; and if an attack spell happens to be real, then no saving throw is given if disbelief is attempted. This applies to all illusory attack spells. As examples of failed saving throws, creatures dropped into an illusory bottomless pit will flail about, creatures dropped into a pit with a bottom will flail and then fall to the ground [and be stunned as before, and take 1 – 2 points of” impact” damage], creatures attempting to cross an illusory bridge over a chasm will promptly fall for actual damage and seem to disappear from view to others beholden to the illusion; all of these effects lasting while the illusionists is concentrating. If a creature is being hailed by others that their predicament is “an illusion”, they get a save at +4; if they recently disbelieved a similar illusion in the same area they get a +8 to their saving throw. Also, note the Intelligence saving throws bonuses noted above [PH; pg. 10]. (see Polyhedron #6, pgs. 10 & 11; Dragon #66; pg. 33). Examples: A fighter attacking the illusionist’s party rushes forward only to find a phantasmal force pit open under him. The fighter is not formally familiar with the locality, and the illusionist has perfected his image of a pit. In this case, the DM might rule no saving throw, as there is no reason to doubt the realistic-looking pit. Or perhaps a magic-user in the same attacking party with an INT of 16 and WIS of 15 has a phantasmal lightning bolt hurled at him. The illusionist’s depiction of the lightning bolt is based on only one viewing of the spell and is imperfect; and there is no crackling noise or smell of ozone since it lacks auditory and olfactory components. The magic-user gets a saving throw with +3 for the missing attributes and “off” depiction of the bolt, +4 for INT and +1 for WIS for a total bonus of +8 to his saving throw to disbelieve. Finally, the illusionist throws a phantasmal pit at a monster with “high” intelligence in its own lair. The creature gets a saving throw, with +1 due to its familiarity with the locale [“there was no pit there before”] and +4 for its INT [no bonus for WIS, since it’s a monster!]; for a total bonus of +5. If a second pit were opened by the illusionist during the melee, any fellows of the monster nearby would get the +5 bonus as well as an additional +8; having witnessed the effects of the first casting [so, +13 to save!].
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GT
Wizard
Duke of Indiana, Knight Commander
Posts: 2,032
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Post by GT on Jun 27, 2021 10:08:30 GMT -5
Here's a question for you guys... Gary had once suggested that a PC who "casts a spell usefully" [offensive, defensive, information] gain a 100 XP/level of the spell. Unfortunately, the illusionist has taken this to mean "try to burn every spell you have to gain the most XP". How would you rein this in, besides no more spell XP [although that is an option...]
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 27, 2021 10:40:10 GMT -5
Get more overreacting with the illusions as their cast. A simple fart sound might do. Or forbid illusionist characters altogether like in WG6 ISLE OF THE APE.
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Post by vandersaniel on Jun 29, 2021 20:57:39 GMT -5
Scott -- Please remind me how initiative with spell casting times works BtB and how you handle it. I thought you did d6, lowest roll wins, and the roll represents the segment of the round and spell casting is added on top of that. Also, do you give AC penalties to those casting spells in melee, and/or take away any Dex bonuses? I've often been lazy and just had everyone on the side that wins initiative go first, including spell-casters, regardless of casting times -- unless the casting time is a turn or more. I used a method that just kind of came to mind when we graduated to AD&D back in the 80's. Since spellcasters need to announce they are casting a spell before initiative, I always assumed they were smart enough to begin casting immediately at the beginning of the round and let the dice fall where they may. If a spellcaster decides to wait until the initiative is rolled, he will begin his spell on the segment of the opposition's die roll.
Some people liked the idea; others didn't. The only problem is that the system is kind of warped in that when will, say a lich, ever be able to cast a spell in a group with three fighters, a battle crazed cleric, and so on? Surely he could never get a decent spell off while dodging and being smacked about? Even the DMG states that intelligently played spell casters will use wands and such in combat. There are combat rules that allow for spellcasting in combat, and one is happy with a more "game-turn" type of play, that's great. My old group demanded that actions be stated quickly as a real fight.
But you're not as lazy as you might think. Even Gary Gygax said that he came up with the one minute combat round just to have spell casting times and in retrospect, thought perhaps it wasn't such a good idea.
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Post by vandersaniel on Jun 29, 2021 21:07:12 GMT -5
Hey Duke,
As the DM you have the right to decide how x.p. is awarded. Simply slaying thirty orcs with a fireball by a twelfth level magic-user should not garner the entire experience points of that encounter--it's just too easy. It's like giving experience to a fighter who stabs a bound opponent. What could either have possibly learned that would increase their knowledge and skill?
I would say that the x.p. should should only be given if it was done with the intention of increasing the party's chances of success and was intelligently cast for effect if you wish to continue awarding experience for casting spells. I honestly never would grant x.p. for simply casting spells in any case.
BTW, nice to meet you, Duke
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Post by GRWelsh on Aug 2, 2021 11:17:30 GMT -5
Another house rule I've decided to implement is the 5% Principle by Lenard Lakofka in DRAGON #80. This always seemed like a logical update to make based upon the existing charts, and it gives player characters improvements at lower levels when they need them the most.
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