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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 1, 2021 8:24:43 GMT -5
Another house rule I am adding is to allow cantrips as written but with the exception you don't have to give up a spell slot to be able to memorize up to four cantrips per day. Otherwise, I can't see them ever getting used. No one is going to give up a magic missile or sleep in order to be able to cast four cantrips, unless they are in a non-adventuring situation like back in town resting up or puttering around their tower researching spells... And in my campaign most of that happens off stage.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 1, 2021 11:14:20 GMT -5
I just noticed the rules regarding cantrips in spell books are an editing mistake in UNEARTHED ARCANA (1985) to smooth out what shouldn't have been needed:
Which is taken from the line in DRAGON #62 (JUN 1982) and BEST OF DRAGON #3 (1983):
Which was altered to this:
See it? The cost of cantrips looks like its an easy grab fill in from the value which is skewed by the market resale. The cost of cantrips should have been factored as far less based on the amount swapped for a 1st level spell instead of this total reworking of this.
I also noticed a bigger mistake by Gary Gygax, that its cheaper to install mid-level spells in a book.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 1, 2021 11:52:30 GMT -5
So the XP value went down but the gp resale value went up. I'd prefer there not be a way for magic-users to be able to "make spellbooks for a living."
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 1, 2021 14:55:35 GMT -5
The writeups seems good on the surface but it appears they lost the text about standard books then sorted it out without knowledge of the lost text.
Anyway what I said before about the spell book cost is a mistake against what we we were just talking about. Unless I'm overlooking something it seems this needs fixing. Let me spell it out:
If the money equivalent of not using a fanciful gathering of ingredients is used 100 gp per spell level then money input is higher for certain spell levels.
36 spells (cantrips) Cantrip 100 gp x 36 = 3600 24 spells (1st-2nd-3rd) 1st 100 gp x 24 = 2400 2nd 200 gp x 24 = 4800 3rd 300 gp x 24 = 7200
16 spells (4th-5th-6th) 4th 400 gp x 16 = 6400 5th 500 gp x 16 = 8000 6th 600 gp x 16 = 9600
8 spells (7th-8th-9th) 7th 700 gp x 8 = 5600 8th 800 gp x 8 = 6400 9th 900 gp x 8 = 7200
Weird that I've never noticed this before.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 2, 2021 7:45:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure that is an error so much as an accounting anomaly created by the categories of how many spells of each level will fill up a spell book. So, a full spell book of 6th level spells costs more than a full spell book of spells of any other level, which seems like it could be an error. But inscribing eight 9th level spells still cost more than inscribing eight spells of 6th level or of any other level. So, on a per spell basis it looks correct in the sense of costs going up for each spell level -- with cantrips being the exception.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 2, 2021 8:01:33 GMT -5
I cracked the code into a pattern of cost for each spell level that fits the book-jamming into equivalents of magical formulae/ingredient worth but it must have been abandoned to say flat 100 as the individual spell level cost is uneven and most likely confusing after a while. I'll work on it for a blog post maybe as an in-game alternative method. It certainly seems attractive.
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Post by grodog on Mar 2, 2021 10:28:09 GMT -5
I just noticed the rules regarding cantrips in spell books are an editing mistake in UNEARTHED ARCANA (1985) to smooth out what shouldn't have been needed: You actually noticed this error some years ago, Gene---I've been crediting it to you since the 2016 discussion of travelling spellbooks (and have it printed out in my UA book with the Dragon errata) =) Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 2, 2021 12:01:12 GMT -5
Well that would explain why it seemed familiar! Now I have to dig for that.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 2, 2021 12:27:05 GMT -5
I do have a file of spelled out spell books:
That folder is a labyrinth! I have to organize everything for publishing before I'm dead!
Speaking of that. I just scaled up Gary's canal size on the Greyhawk map that he had me doing to the City Geomorphs and its exact. It obviously takes like doing a hundred pages of those geomorphs just to get the Thieves Quarter! He really expected me to do a thousand full page geomorphs (3) to get the detail of the whole city? That is going to take a lot more energy than I have. I think I'm going to use my original 1990's novel outline maps over a wallpaper background of geomorphs and let everyone DIY because where does the Gary part end? Who cares what I have to say about it?
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Post by grodog on Mar 2, 2021 21:13:09 GMT -5
Speaking of that. I just scaled up Gary's canal size on the Greyhawk map that he had me doing to the City Geomorphs and its exact. It obviously takes like doing a hundred pages of those geomorphs just to get the Thieves Quarter! He really expected me to do a thousand full page geomorphs (3) to get the detail of the whole city? That is going to take a lot more energy than I have. I think I'm going to use my original 1990's novel outline maps over a wallpaper background of geomorphs and let everyone DIY because where does the Gary part end? Who cares what I have to say about it? It must be something in the air; someone else was talking about whipping out the City Geos recently.... Allan.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 3, 2021 8:59:22 GMT -5
I do have a file of spelled out spell books: I think I'm going to use my original 1990's novel outline maps over a wallpaper background of geomorphs and let everyone DIY because where does the Gary part end? That is an awesome idea and would look great on a framed poster map in the game room. I currently have the Darlene maps in poster frames and the City of Greyhawk as you have described could be added to make a triptych. I have a similar map based on a photocopy of the map from CITY OF HAWKS, blown up and then side by side with notes made from the Gord books is a reference for Greyhawk City (lists of quarters, gates, streets, inns and taverns, etc.). I also once started doing a map in the "Lankhmar style" but soon abandoned it -- although it looked nice felt like getting bogged down in non-useful detail.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 3, 2021 9:25:51 GMT -5
I'm going to lay it all out and see what exactly is pure Gary and revalidate all the locations. Since GH is interdimensional it has coffee and tobacco. That is a major element that is forcefully Gary. And no "street boys" as an encounter. Thats right out! My main city of "Bravesword" is covered in street boys and no coffee or tobacco...
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 3, 2021 9:51:46 GMT -5
Since GH is interdimensional it has coffee and tobacco. That is a major element that is forcefully Gary. Don't forget the Bordeaux.
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Post by Scott on Mar 3, 2021 14:54:46 GMT -5
I do have a file of spelled out spell books: I think I'm going to use my original 1990's novel outline maps over a wallpaper background of geomorphs and let everyone DIY because where does the Gary part end? That is an awesome idea and would look great on a framed poster map in the game room. I currently have the Darlene maps in poster frames and the City of Greyhawk as you have described could be added to make a triptych. I have a similar map based on a photocopy of the map from CITY OF HAWKS, blown up and then side by side with notes made from the Gord books is a reference for Greyhawk City (lists of quarters, gates, streets, inns and taverns, etc.). I also once started doing a map in the "Lankhmar style" but soon abandoned it -- although it looked nice felt like getting bogged down in non-useful detail. That is a lot of work for material that may get very little use. The most practical approach seems to almost be winging it, and then codifying what happened while winging it. In advance you probable only need an inn, a temple, a trader, and a wizard to buy/identify magic or cast spells.
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Post by Scott on Mar 3, 2021 14:55:30 GMT -5
And a detailed gate or two.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 11, 2021 9:46:23 GMT -5
Another house rule I've implemented is around the thief's backstab ability. I make it easier for thieves to do this based on a judgment call moreso than dice rolls. It is one of the core abilities and I think it should be a useful option and not just for high level thieves. If a party is doing a lot of combat in a dungeon, it should be something thief characters can pull off fairly frequently. I've been letting thieves attempt either a hide in shadows or move silently roll and if they succeed and get behind an enemy that is otherwise distracted, I allow the backstab. I've always disliked the thieves' abilities as I prefer DM judgment calls based on the situation and the thief class took something away from that. As written, it is a class with many abilities at 1st level but few that ever work.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 11, 2021 14:43:57 GMT -5
The thief player must be in a vivid universe for me to enjoy them that is why I never play them as a player. So I get what your saying they have to be given cheese constantly or annoying.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 12, 2021 7:20:50 GMT -5
The thief is a fantasy archetype and can be a great addition to the game. I like the theme of the little guy who rises to greatness, the reformed scoundrel, or the unexpected hero. But an unfortunate stereotype is the trouble making player attracted to the thief class in order to be disruptive, i.e. attempting to pick pockets of people at the inn before the adventure even gets started, or picking the pockets of other party members, etc. I once had a thief player try use stealth to sneak behind and cut the tail off of the pegasus mount of a cleric who was trying to help the party! Of course, it kicked him unconscious.
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Post by Scott on Mar 12, 2021 8:14:04 GMT -5
Thieves are practically useless at low levels. You're almost forced to be disruptive just to get some enjoyment out of the character. Judgement calls and adjustments are in the spirit of the game, and implied or stated in the DMG description of the abilities, but you rarely see them in play. There should be more lesser quality locks at lower levels that give thieves bonuses to their rolls. Same with traps, it should be a lot easier to detect the falling rock trap the kobolds set on the fake door they put in their lair than the poison needle trap on the guild master of thieves personal safe. I think more of this kind of variation makes gives the class al little more appeal.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 12, 2021 8:16:38 GMT -5
Heh, is the pattern one of playing a fun game choosing something called the thief class then unlocking, otherwise managed, bad behaviors into an evening of excused assholery?
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