Placement of Castle site: E vs W of city

[grodog]

I thought that we’d had some good discussion about the Castle’s location East vs West relative to the city and river, but couldn’t find them the other day.

Anyone have pointers?

Allan.

[Scott]

I remember the conversation, but it was a long time ago. It might have been on my old boards.
Most of the earliest stuff I can think of points to west. I think later there were some references to north. I don’t remember seeing any Gygax related material saying west.

[GRWelsh]

Allan, the conversation you are thinking of is probably from this thread:

doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/567/wog-folio-city-greyhawk

After rereading it, I remember concluding the castle would be 2-3 miles northeast of the city and accessible by the road going north out of Lordsgate and without having to cross either river. That was based on a number of different sources:

I. "The Expedition Into The Black Reservoir" which describes the castle as east of the city.
II. "The Heart Of Darkness" in NIGHT ARRANT which describes the castle being about 3 miles from the northern verge of the city.
III. Gene's aborted "Greyhawk 2000" project which got input from EGG himself, approving a location of the castle north of the city.
IV. CASTLE ZAGYG has a map by Darlene with the castle northeast of the city on a hill west of a river and near a marsh.

It's true that there are different incarnations of Greyhawk and the home campaign version, published game and fictional versions, and CASTLE ZAGYG are not all the same or even compatible. So, it could be considered a fool's errand to use them all as sources for arriving at any conclusion... I don't disagree with that. My only intent was to come up with a placement and local geography usable for play and inspired by what EGG's players experienced. The ZAGYG map has distances too far for that, but some geographical features can be incorporated. If the Grey Run north of the city bends east then Castle Greyhawk can be both northeast of the city and west of that river on a rock-boned prominence overlooking a marsh... For me, that's perfect!

[Scott]

In the setup I've been using recently the Grey Run loops east, south, and then east again through the marsh until it turns north again where it flows just east of the castle. The most direct route is through Oldgate, but it is the more dangerous route. It crosses the marshlands and an old stone bridge.
If you go north through Lordsgate, after about a half mile you will come to the Old Castle Track branching off to the east and then turning southeast. This way is longer but avoids most of the marsh. The two paths meet just before the ascent up the west side of the prominence. On the marsh track you can find some narrow paths. Most lead to monster lairs. One takes you to the base of the prominence where you can access the Mouths of Madness caves.

[geneweigel]

From NIGHT ARRANT:

The once-magnificent castle could be seen from any vantage point in the city. It was on a high hill about three miles
away from the northern verge of Greyhawk. The only road, at one time smooth and easily accessible, had slowly
deteriorated into little more than a rutted trail that was seldom, if ever, used any more. Local folk shunned the area,
claiming that the things that dwelled beneath the pile of stones came forth at night to waylay the unwary. The land
surrounding the castle for approximately a mile in any given direction was a tangled wilderness, save for that to the
north of the castle's great mound. There lay a great bog with pools said to be bottomless and mires of deadliest sort.
Gord and Chert had, in fact, been to the deserted ruins before. They had dared the dungeons underneath, and after
considerable exploration had decided their time was more profitably spent in other endeavors.

[grodog]

May 25, 2020 6:28:03 GMT -5 GRWelsh said:

Allan, the conversation you are thinking of is probably from this thread:

doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/567/wog-folio-city-greyhawk

Thanks, Gary!

The discussion in FB that inspired my Q is at www.facebook.com/groups/ghmaps/permalink/3164961216900590/

Allan.

[GRWelsh]

May 25, 2020 8:59:42 GMT -5 Scott said:

In the setup I've been using recently the Grey Run loops east, south, and then east again through the marsh until it turns north again where it flows just east of the castle. The most direct route is through Oldgate, but it is the more dangerous route. It crosses the marshlands and an old stone bridge.
If you go north through Lordsgate, after about a half mile you will come to the Old Castle Track branching off to the east and then turning southeast. This way is longer but avoids most of the marsh. The two paths meet just before the ascent up the west side of the prominence. On the marsh track you can find some narrow paths. Most lead to monster lairs. One takes you to the base of the prominence where you can access the Mouths of Madness caves.

I like that. Does the old stone bridge cross the Grey Run outside of Oldgate? Because on the CITY OF HAWKS map it looks like the Grey Run pretty much flows right outside of Oldgate yet with no bridge marked there even though there are bridges marked at other locations. If you don't have a bridge there, how do the characters get from Oldgate to the marsh track? In the past, I had considered placing a ruined bridge outside of Oldgate, that crossed the Grey Run so people could go through the fens directly to Castle Greyhawk and therefore be more in line with "The Expedition Into The Black Reservior" description. Also, that would keep it closer to Old City and places of like the Green Dragon Inn in the Foreign Quarter.

[Scott]

I put a bridge outside Oldgate. Considering Old City was the original city, and there’s still a functioning gate there, it doesn’t make sense for there not to be a bridge.
But I was talking about a separate bridge. A classic troll bridge on the far side of the swamp where the track crosses the Grey Run again before intersecting with the Old Castle Track.

[grodog]

For quick reference!

From "Expedition the Black Reservoir" @

To the east of the busy walled city of Greyhawk the land is forsaken, overgrown with thorns and thistles. Oozing marsh creeps slowly down. The copses are huddles of weird, bloated trees. The wiry grass seems to grasp at the feet of any who dare to tread upon it. In the center of this unwholesome place, on a rock-boned prominence, hulks the ruin of the grim Greyhawk Castle. Still a few of the bravest sort regularly frequent its precincts---one such as Erac, a spellcaster, Erac the Enchanter, Erac the ambitious, a paladin of Law.

This same magic-user now commanded a party of four bent on despoiling the wicked dwellers of the underworld beneath the castle of some goodly treasure. At Erac’s side paced the lama Londlar. At the back of one was Nulfyke, a dwarf swordsman, while behind the other was the acolyte Ugubb of the Lake of Crystals. The fallen west gate of Greyhawk Castle was at hand, and through this mouldering portal the party passed. In a few moments they had entered the great central keep, heaved open an inner door, and carefully proceeded down a set of winding stone steps---steps worn with age and slippery with dampness. They had entered the dungeons.

From "The Magician's Ring" @ gygaxslegendarium.blogspot.com/1975/06/the-magicians-ring.html :

Those who have explored the countyside between the bustling city of Greyhawk and the castle ruins of the same name which lie on the hill not a league to the east of the city will testify to the fact that there are a number of strange tunnels and wells about. Wise folks avoid them, for the know that these are but entrances to the fiendish maze of dungeons, pits, labyrinths, crypts, catacombs, and caverns which honeycomb the hill and the rock far beneath it. There are those, however, who eagerly seek these ways, for it is likewise well-known that incalculable treasure also rests within these twisting mazes. Dauntless adventurers sally through these entrances to a hideous underworld, determined to gain great fortunes or die. It is of such an adventurer that this take is built around-- a rare tale indeed.

Allan.

[foster1941]

Presumably those two accounts were written before the Greyhawk City map was revised/expanded to add the Grey Run along the eastern edge of the city, but once it was there the castle was moved from the east to the north so as not to have a stream in between it and the city. Considering all of the geographical changes that took place between the Home campaign and the Published one, that's pretty minor...

[Scott]

I've been thinking about this since my last post and I have decided to remove the bridge outside of Oldgate. There used to be a bridge when Old City was the City, and you can still see the foundations, but the bridge is gone. On the other side of the Grey Run is the start of the old road that used to be the main road to the Castle, but has been mostly abandoned since Zagig's day, and is now more of a path.
On the eastern side of the city outside of Oldgate and Longgate you can catch a barge to cross the Grey Run and take you to the start of the swamp path, or maybe even all the way to the ruins.
The Lordsgate option will stay the same, the road outside of Lordsgate heads north, after about a half mile you will reach the Old Castle Track that will take you to the ruins.
The Lordsgate option is about twice as long as the swamp trail option. The possible encounters in the swamp are much more dangerous.

[Scott]

On the Castle Zagyg map, the False Urt river is now the Grey Run. North of the city the Grey Run loops east and south, then east and north again, and runs past the eastern edge of the ruins.