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Post by Scott on Apr 21, 2020 10:52:16 GMT -5
Looking for opinions. What range would you give the prison? In reading the item description in S4, it mentions that a special command spell (in italics) is required to capture a target, and it refers to it as a spell multiple times. The Prison is also in the new spell section and not the magic item/artifact section. So am I correct in thinking to use this the spell needs to be memorized in advance like any other spell the magic-user would cast?
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Post by grodog on Apr 21, 2020 13:29:04 GMT -5
I would think so, yes.
I was just thinking last night and this morning about Zagig/Zagyg's steps toward apotheosis, and that I think as part of those requirements, he would have had to craft at least one of each unique magical item (potions through misc. and misc. weapons plus artifact/relic), and that he would have created unique spells for each of his spell-casting classes. I made a note to check out the Prison (and your notes on the Spear too!), the various misc. ones from UA, etc. Fun stuff =)
Anyway, to your Q: I would set the range of the Prison as at least 6" since that's what an iron flask's range is set to (and Tuerney's flask doesn't have a range listed in the DMG or in EW). I'm inclined to set it to 9" or so, but that's just based on gut feeling.
Aside: I wonder if the cage for Queen Ehlissa's Marvelous Nightengale is perhaps one of the Prisons of Zagyg....
Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 21, 2020 16:40:44 GMT -5
I wasn't sure what you were referring to but now I realize. The new spells were part of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv and the Prison was the next entry. It is under miscellaneous magic in UNEARTHED ARCANA.
As for the range. I had used the "command" range.
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Post by Scott on Apr 21, 2020 17:01:14 GMT -5
in the past I had set the range at 3", but the reference to the command spell got me thinking. That would make it 1", which would limit it's use in most melee situations, but make it much more of a summoning and imprisoning device. I could see finding one in the Greyhawk dungeons with a little 3" tall demon prince in there.
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Post by grodog on Apr 21, 2020 20:46:32 GMT -5
Ah, now I thought you were asking two different questions: 1) Is a memorized special command spell required to operate the Prison of Zagyg?: to which my response is “yes”. I hadn’t given any thought to the range of this command spell 2) At what range can the Prison capture a target creature, assuming the wielder knows and memorizes the command spell?: which I suggested 6”-9”. I suppose you could use both limits together: the range of the magic item could still be 6”-9” and the wielder of the Prison/caster of the special command spell may need to be within 1” of the Prison to use it (or whatever values you decide upon for the ranges). Allan.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 21, 2020 23:26:16 GMT -5
I’ve always understood it that the Prisons have unlimited range - that knowing the true name, speaking the appropriate command words, and the victim failing their saving throw that they can be drawn into the cage from anywhere, including other planes. I’m surprised the rest of you don’t rule it that way.
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Post by grodog on Apr 22, 2020 0:16:21 GMT -5
So you see it as a conjuration device, as well as a containment/prison device Trent? Interesting. The process is similar to cacodemon and spiritwrack.
I suppose I’ve always envisioned that Iggwilv had labs with permanently enchanted magical protection circles, etc., and that I saw her conjuring there, then using the Prison to take her demons “to go” as needed. I haven’t considered the range of the Prison in general, since no one has recovered it in campaign play since before college (perhaps before high school).
Worth pondering further! =)
Allan.
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Post by Scott on Apr 22, 2020 7:31:54 GMT -5
That seems almost too powerful. No restrictions on what could be imprisoned and unlimited range would make it much more powerful than a cacodemon or binding spell. My players just started the G series and they already have Eclavdra’s name. One bad save and the giant/drow problem is solved.
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Post by grodog on Apr 22, 2020 9:30:24 GMT -5
That seems almost too powerful. No restrictions on what could be imprisoned and unlimited range would make it much more powerful than a cacodemon or binding spell. My players just started the G series and they already have Eclavdra’s name. One bad save and the giant/drow problem is solved. Oh I wouldn't worry about that too much: I'm sure that "Eclavdra" isn't her truename---the use of "personal name" vs. "truename" isn't consistent in the rules, but it's seemed pretty clear to me that they're synonymous. Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 22, 2020 9:54:44 GMT -5
Yeah, it is vague, but the Demonomicon introduced all those "Cacodemon/Gate Plus" expansion type spells (Abjure, Banishment, Exaction, Binding, Dismissal, Dolor, Ensnarement and Torment) so I assumed it was "Frodo-proofed" for advanced sorcery only. Too many fucking "Frodos" playing D&D...
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Post by Scott on Apr 22, 2020 9:56:47 GMT -5
I think the true name thing mainly applies to extra planet beings, but could apply to an alias too. Having Eclavdra be anything but her true name seems more like an attempt to nerf the Prison than anything else.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 22, 2020 12:16:39 GMT -5
It depends on the campaign. The "truename" spell from Dragon #68 Sorcerer's Scroll (DEC 1982; duplicated in UNEARTHED ARCANA[1985]) went into detail on how to handle it:
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 22, 2020 19:01:58 GMT -5
One interpretation makes it too powerful, and another interpretation makes it virtually unusable. I'd prefer it to be somewhere in the middle. The magic item the Prison seems most similar to is the Iron Flask which has a range of 6". That seemed similar to how Scott's players were using it in the game last Saturday. Differences are that with an Iron Flask, the personal name is not needed to force a creature into it, only a command word; and a command word used on on a released creature can force it to serve for 1 turn, or provide a minor service taking up to 1 hour. Also, the Iron Flask only works on other planar creatures, but the Prison lists no such limitation. The Iron Flask requires a save versus magic to avoid imprisonment, at +2 for a creature that has previously been imprisoned in the Flask while the Prison requires a save versus spells to avoid imprisonment. The Iron Flask has either one or two command words, while the Prison has an Activation Word, a Trigger Word, a Command Spell with a 1 round casting time, and a Freedom Word. That makes the Prison fiddly and not that great of a combat item, but still useful for storing prisoners the party doesn't want to leave behind or even (with a creative use) storing rescued people the party doesn't want harmed (imagine a rescued princess being kept safe in there).
This topic deserves a whole article of analysis, but I'm afraid it would be inconclusive and come down to a DM's judgement call in the end, anyway. At times EGG was trying to give AD&D spells and magic more depth by bringing in influences from history, legend and folkore (true names, ritual magics, circles and symbols of protection, etc.), which I love, but I don't think it all got completely developed.
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Post by Scott on Apr 23, 2020 22:56:02 GMT -5
Up until the last session it had only been used to sneak an extra passenger onto the flying carpet. I think that how the party used it last session is probably how I would expect it to work. Risky, at best, as a combat option, but a good option for dealing with a captive or subdued opponent. My party really doesn’t get a lot of value out of their charms. It’s like all or nothing. The monster either k owns the BBG’s mater plan, of its a goner. There no carry this, or show us the way, or help us fight. The party goes right for the big questions, and if you can’t answer it, dead.
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