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Post by geneweigel on Mar 8, 2020 11:08:57 GMT -5
This was brought up HEREand I thought it should be disseminated as a whole. I had previously mentioned when I came to Connecticut in 1983, a kid who sat at my table in homeroom had a character who conceived children with a subdued dragon who was essentially a henchman. I had noticed there seemed to be a trend of hybrid humans conceived by players off screen as a default with the ultimate D&D namesake (dragons) being the gold standard. Somewhere it slowed down and I have a feeling maybe it was because of DRAGONLANCE. In 1984, DRAGONLANCE introduced the idea of good dragon eggs enspelled to make evil dragon-humans (Draconians). DRAGONLANCE was the first solid female marketing approach and this concept might have been deliberate. This factor of an unborn infant being corrupted into a sterile evil male disintegrating upon death is subtle but it almost seems like its addressing the user end dragon-human trend directly. Then along comes Williams' version of D&D with a pull for less scary stuff and a call for user end material to supplement the loss of Gygax (and the Blumes) and eventually we get the full swing "half-dragon" in the COUNCIL OF WYRMS setting by Bill Slavicsek (The guy who oversaw the 1987 West End Star Wars Game which introduced a lot of bad concepts into SW "canon".) The boxed set introduces the concept of playing full out dragons with little depth at all into it except Carl Sargent's (Another hack designer hired to tackle Gygaxless Greyhawk)"splat book" MONSTER MYTHOLOGY (1992) introducing peers of Tiamat and Bahamut. Anyway overall, if you've never bought or seen COUNCIL OF WYRMS (It was $30 plus when it came out), it was a very weak set with players playing dragons directly with bland and weak scenarios hinting this should be a lot of talking. The "half-dragon" included in the set is the offspring of a male dragon and a demihuman female. Then Roger E. Moore comes along in Dragon Magazine #206 (JUN 1994)and drops in female humans as well for his "expanded look". Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995), strangely took the human-less non-Moore version back but it was too late the genie was out of the bottle which it readily warped right into "threediness" that we know today with "dragonborn". |
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Post by Scott on Mar 8, 2020 11:35:15 GMT -5
I'm kind of OK with anything in the right circumstances. I've tried to maintain the humanocentric aspect that Gary set for Greyhawk, where even orcs don't mingle with humans in most places, so tieflings, Dragonborn, etc. even drow are asking for an angry, superstitious mob in most locations.
The 5E adventure Out of the Abyss is a good option for the non-standard types, set completely in the Underdark where anything that might turn up in Erelhi Cinlu would be fair game.
If a player was insistent in a standard game, I'd try to work in something like a hat of disguise, etc. or the PC could face mob justice.
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Post by Scott on Mar 8, 2020 11:42:18 GMT -5
In the vague mythology I have come up with, there is no human/dragon race, but an exception/one off is possible. The Dragonborn are more like the descendants of lesser spirits that came to the prime and took physical form long ago, like the maiar, at the behest of Bahamut/Tiamat for reasons I have never quantified.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 8, 2020 12:17:29 GMT -5
I suppose it is the execution more than the concept that I dislike. Dragonborn seems like one of those munchkin-y races players take for the bonuses, rather than any interesting mythology behind them. Way back in the early 80's one of my first DMs who was very creative offered as one of his race options a half-human meaning you started out knowing you were half-human but without knowing what the other half was. So, it could be demon, satyr or whatever and you'd only find out through play. It wasn't guaranteed to simply be a power up, it could turn out to be a liability. I loved this and thought it was very creative, and so I'm not opposed to the idea of players being half-monsters or something odd when collaborating with the DM. Since some dragons can assume human form, in the fantasy context it is plausible for some half-dragons to be out there somewhere, roaming around. I just don't like the idea of human settlements being overrun by 3e+ dragonborn mercenaries with cartoonishly oversized weapons and armor with too many straps because they're now a core player option.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 8, 2020 12:34:24 GMT -5
I'm kind of OK with anything in the right circumstances. I've tried to maintain the humanocentric aspect that Gary set for Greyhawk, where even orcs don't mingle with humans in most places, so tieflings, Dragonborn, etc. even drow are asking for an angry, superstitious mob in most locations. The 5E adventure Out of the Abyss is a good option for the non-standard types, set completely in the Underdark where anything that might turn up in Erelhi Cinlu would be fair game. If a player was insistent in a standard game, I'd try to work in something like a hat of disguise, etc. or the PC could face mob justice. You're spot on, its easier to throw it coming out of a dungeon than on the street makes one wonder is that what the half-dragon as a playable race concept really represents? A taking of the namesake of "Dungeons and Dragons" and neutering it? What about a playable Demogorgon? |
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 8, 2020 15:57:38 GMT -5
In the vague mythology I have come up with, there is no human/dragon race, but an exception/one off is possible. The Dragonborn are more like the descendants of lesser spirits that came to the prime and took physical form long ago, like the maiar, at the behest of Bahamut/Tiamat for reasons I have never quantified. I've got various reptilians but that seems like a special case that usually gets not so special treatment. |
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 8, 2020 16:05:55 GMT -5
I suppose it is the execution more than the concept that I dislike. Dragonborn seems like one of those munchkin-y races players take for the bonuses, rather than any interesting mythology behind them. Way back in the early 80's one of my first DMs who was very creative offered as one of his race options a half-human meaning you started out knowing you were half-human but without knowing what the other half was. So, it could be demon, satyr or whatever and you'd only find out through play. It wasn't guaranteed to simply be a power up, it could turn out to be a liability. I loved this and thought it was very creative, and so I'm not opposed to the idea of players being half-monsters or something odd when collaborating with the DM. Since some dragons can assume human form, in the fantasy context it is plausible for some half-dragons to be out there somewhere, roaming around. I just don't like the idea of human settlements being overrun by 3e+ dragonborn mercenaries with cartoonishly oversized weapons and armor with too many straps because they're now a core player option. Overwrought and beefed concepts were my brother's forte' with all the addons from companion, master and immortal sets being incongruent. While we were sampling finely aged cheeses from ancient moulds he'd come in with a cauldron of molten Velveeta and spill it all over the table. (At the time, I blamed Mentzer, then I lowered my dismissal of all things Mentzer over the years. Now everybody hates him. Well!  ) |
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 8, 2020 18:34:22 GMT -5
I’ve got “dragon-blooded” as a PC race, but they look human and are, in effect, mostly reskinned elves with reaction bonus with dragons and reptiles, a fast-talking ability, and a couple saving throw bonuses. They’re inspired mostly by Danaerys from Game of Thrones. I think something like this fits the flavor of AD&D way better than lizard-headed guys that breathe fire.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 8, 2020 21:00:08 GMT -5
Looking back at the "draconian" palatability. The concept didn't gel because it was overbaked. Its like calling ogres "ocara" and trolls "taraka". It just doesn't feel good. A straight forward "copper dragon man" with a clear evil worshiping (demon?) drive would have had D&D fans lit but they wanted this blandness to serve else where. I once thought of fixing DL but that would only serve to promote it at face value. To salvage the entirety has to be scrapped and a new concept added instead of diluted breath weapon equivicated functions they need to be reinvented. Breath weapon seems ridiculous on humanoids... (Well, except for the dragon troll... ) The TSR staffers thought this through intelligently I believe but ended up with a group-designed and awkward pile of dog turds. Try reading all five in a row and its like you don't even want to use them. Basically its: Baaz a baby brass dragon egg multiplied and animated by abishai from Takhisis (Tiamat) into a soldier caste (2 HD;AC4) Bozak a baby bronze dragon egg multiplied and animated by abishai from Takhisis (Tiamat) into a magic-user caste (4 HD;AC2;burning bands, enlarge, magic missile, shocking grasp, invisibility, levitate, stinking cloud, and web.) Kapak a baby copper dragon egg multiplied and animated by abishai from Takhisis (Tiamat) into a assassin/warrior caste (3 HD;AC4;poison spittle licks weapons induces paralysis) Sivak a baby silver dragon egg multiplied and animated by abishai from Takhisis (Tiamat) into an infiltrator caste (6 HD;AC1;shapechange) Aurak a baby gold dragon egg multiplied and animated by abishai from Takhisis (Tiamat) into a special agent caste (8 HD;AC0;dimension door, invisibility, polymorph, change self [duplicate person]), breath weapon gas damage and blinding, spells [enlarge, shocking grasp, ESP, stinking cloud, blink,lightning bolt,fire shield, and wall of fire.] and mind control. However, there is an intent within that seems to have missed the shot. Its like they are too busy for humanoids. Cutting through the gibberish lets try to imagine them in the Monster Manual. I can only see the first one. |
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 9, 2020 7:02:58 GMT -5
When first reading DRAGONLANCE I thought draconians were redundant and an inefficent way of raising an army. I also wondered where were all of these good dragon eggs coming from? If you can get around 20 baaz draconians from a single brass dragon egg, then you'd need 100 eggs to get 2000 troops. What happened to the brass dragons these eggs were taken from? And what of all of the other metallic dragons who had their eggs stolen and corrupted? This seemed to be a missing element of the story. Were these good dragons in captivity, forced to lay eggs like giant hens? Or were they robbed of their eggs in their natural lairs? Either seems like a lot of trouble to go through to create an army of what are essentially lizard men or troglodyte level monsters. It's hard to imagine a good dragon egg-laying factory to produce this army of draconians. Why go to all this trouble when you already have lizard men, troglodytes, kobolds, goblins, orc and their shaman/witchdoctors and abishai? And if you are powerful enough to run this massive operation, why do you need more humanoid troops that are not much better than what you can already cheaply hire or cow to your will? Corrupting a good dragon's egg with evil sorcery is a suitably horrific idea, but should result in something more powerful and interesting than draconian troops... Something troll level or higher, at the very least. An abomination!
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 9, 2020 8:46:34 GMT -5
I think the naming ("Baaz", "Kapak", etc), origin ("good offspring", etc) and gender (I didn't mention they are all male appearing) are all part of the unseen marketing of attracting new female shoppers already present in the bookstores at the malls. I mentioned this priorly that posters were geared for women in the windows especially the Pern series which is what i believe they were trying to emulate. A straight up draconian/dragon man might resemble the first one stat wise but the cloaked disguise thing mentioned in their description doesn't seem to be very D&D in feel at all. You could do that to a hobgoblin more effectively so why bother with this shit? I think it can be looked at as Dragonlance was trying a theme of approaching D&D in a completely superficial manner but with the the staffers on hand they didn't know how to grapple low key rule aesthetics without big G's involvement. I have a "dragon man" figure from the DRAGONRIDERS OF THE STYX action figure line (1982?) that is more in line with what I would have thought a dragon man looked like. images.app.goo.gl/oipq4xHfCQvGxp7j9I could almost imagine something like this in FIEND FOLIO (1981) drawn by the ogrillon artist (Alan Hunter?). |
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