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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 17, 2020 8:49:40 GMT -5
What I do like about player vs. player mode is that it is intense in a way fighting monsters run by the DM is not. DMs can and do fudge a bit to give players a slight advantage, even by having monsters make poor tactical decisions. But another player will never give you a break because he wants to win as much as you do! So, I agree it can be a positive, if handled correctly. The downside is if people take things personally and you get locked into a cycle... "Oh, your elf killed my character? The new character I'm rolling up has a personal hatred of all elves." The campaign goes nowhere because the focus is on vendetta. Or, players get annoyed when they perceive another player as intentionally derailing things or making it all about him. There is a game called TALISMAN that we all play which is nearly "D&D: the boardgame" except everyone goes into it knowing there can only be one winner, so there are no expectations ruined by the player vs. player fighting. I suppose it all comes down to expectations.
I've always wanted to ask EGG, Ernie, and Rob about the rivalry between Tenser and Robilar, because from what I can tell, that was the earliest player vs. player mode in D&D. I'm not sure if they ever actually fought, but I know there were some tensions that arose.
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Post by Scott on Feb 17, 2020 12:03:41 GMT -5
I can't remember who did it, but I know Serten was killed and looted by other PCs, I think they were out for his snake staff, and Serten's allies, including Merlynd chased the killers to the stronghold of an evil high priest. They couldn't get in. The good guys swore vengeance, and Merlynd was the most determined, but they never did catch them.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 17, 2020 19:14:41 GMT -5
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 18, 2020 8:16:38 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I was bouncing back and forth because I knew in the future I'd want to reference that in the other thread.
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Post by Scott on Feb 21, 2020 12:32:27 GMT -5
Speaking of player vs player activity, has anybody been following Jim Ward's Greyhawk stories on the Sages of Greyhawk page? He's shared about a dozen so far, and one talks about a scheme Terry Kuntz ran. He would hire 1st level henchmen, get them to second level, and then have them respond to other PCs 'looking for henchmen' ads who would scoop them up because it was very rare to have an applicant above 1st level. Once hired they would work as spies for him, learning the dungeons, what the other PCs were up to, what they had, etc.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 21, 2020 15:42:14 GMT -5
Thats a Grand Central Station type game that is probably never the "home version"!
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 23, 2020 10:05:18 GMT -5
We played the second session of Wes' campaign last night. The last session had ended with the two factions tensely anticipating combat, as we -- Mirabilis, Billy Ragg, and Stinkfoot Muckstomper -- were huddled Stinkfoot's safe house in the swamp, and Oton Battlefury, Estarel and Elkanen were outside pounding on the door. Since there was no rear exit (and who ever heard of such a thing in a thieves' hideout?), we were prepared to fight. Mirabilis and Stinkfoot were invisible from spells cast by the magic-user. It was at that moment that Wes did his deus ex machina, with a god-like dragon literally flying down out of the sky to land right next to the safe house! It was not Bahamut, but might as well have been. The dragon was immense, scintillating and metallic, and of various colors. Oton and Estarel cowered from the dragon fear, but Elkanen made his save and stood tall before the dragon. The dragon greeted Elkanen and said its grandsires had told him of the elf (Elkanen although only about 140 years old had been in temporal stasis for hundreds or even thousands of years), and of the Royal Guard. It asked why Elkanen had abandoned his charge to guard the temple, and the elf told of how Mirabilis took something from the temple and he was trying to recover it. The dragon then turned its attention to the safe house and demanded those inside come forth and state what they're doing here. Billy Ragg opened the door and went on a tirade about how all he was trying to do was avoid the others and what he really wanted was to be left alone. Due to the radiance and presence of the dragon, no one had noticed until now that there was a rider -- an armored figure. It dismounted and was revealed to be Samantha, Billy Ragg's favorite sister (played by Cindy)! The dragon sniffed, and said, "You others in the hut! Come forth and reveal yourselves!" Mirabilis and Stinkfoot came forth and Mirabilis dispelled his invisibility but Stinkfoot remained behind him invisible in the mud. The dragon revealed its name as Va'ulkaas and had something to do with the convent Sister Samantha belonged to. Mirabilis told the dragon he had lost his memory, and heard voices in his mind saying, "find the map" and "follow the map" and that is why he took the map from the temple. Va'ulkaas was a figure of some authority in this world, and charged Elkanen and Oton to accompany "the seeker" Mirabilis on his quest. Then the dragon asked us each what we wanted to help us on our quest, and cast a sort of greater item spell to make horses, weapons and equipment appear. Then, bidding us well, it flew off.
The party was 'together' but this didn't quite end all of our problems, since although I went along, Mark and Eric still weren't playing along nice with the 'united, happy party' that Wes had imposed. They hadn't participated in the dragon's item ritual, and so they still didn't have any weapons or armor. And they refused to go on the adventure without such things. Billy Ragg was a swashbuckler kit, and demanded to have a rapier and main-gauche. Stinkfoot wanted a sword, short bow and darts. They felt like they had no stake in the quest. I negotiated with them that if we went back to the Keep and Oton bought them weapons, they would accompany us at least to the entrance of the Troll King's Lair. We needed Stinkfoot to at least guide us through the swamp to get there. This middle part of the adventure was all about Stinkfoot being disruptive and trying to pick the party's pockets in search of money or booze. Eventually, we got them armed, and returned to the swamp where we fought two trolls before a shallow pond with a ruined castle -- the Troll King's lair. There were bones everywhere along the shores of the water. Everyone wanted to memorize more fire-based spells, so we made camp and rested. We saw ripples in the water, and a giant shape rising out of it -- the Troll King, Goltia! After a pitched battle with the monster dealing a lot of damage but not killing anyone, we finally brought it down, and with the help of flame blades cast by the clerics, we made sure it was dead for good. Billy and Samantha ran off ahead into the ruins and found an entrance with a lot of filth, steps and a chamber with another map and magic items. Returning back to the keep, we spent the next few days with Mirabilis casting identify on each item, and here is who got what item: mithral chain shirt for the arcane class that magic-users could wear (Mirabilis), silvery staff that can strike with blue flame (Samantha), silvery white ring with elven word "Quilkin" that can summon something to answer questions (Billy Ragg), plain iron ring headband which is a circlet of protection (Stinkfoot). This map tube fit into the earlier found map tube from the temple with a click and shifted to make a new map, indicating our next destination to be in the mountains to the north.
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Post by Scott on Feb 23, 2020 11:27:43 GMT -5
Sounds like a few geas spells would have been appropriate. But by the end it seems like everybody is on track and on to the next objective.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 23, 2020 12:31:57 GMT -5
Yes, we are. And although not a geas spell, Wes having a god-like dragon give us the quest was close enough. If not for the 2nd edition stuff, this campaign feels a lot like something I would have played in 1982: it has a very creative DM making up a lot of his own stuff and starting characters at higher levels, party in-fighting, course correction by intervention of powerful NPC, epic quest, etc. Eric predicted that as we get closer to our goal, Mirabilis and Elkanen will gradually recover their memories with one of them becoming the villain. We'll see, but Wes is definitely a "take you out of the room to explain something" DM. I'll play along since it is only about two more sessions, but in a normal extended campaign I would resent all of this heavy-handed DMing.
You're right about Eric. The more a DM tries to force him down a certain path, the more he resists and gets conniving and disruptive. It's funny to watch, when you're one of the other players!
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