Wes World (Party in-fighting)

[GRWelsh]

We started a new AD&D campaign last night with Wes as the DM. The positive is that Wes is very creative at making an original setting with lots of his own customization. The negative is he started us out in this weird way of not knowing what levels we were, giving some us amnesia, and pitting us against each other. He spent the rest of the game trying to railroad the party back together on a mission. Of course, since some of us spent the early part of the game trying to attack or avoid each other, it did not go well! The game ended with the players in two factions on the verge of combat. It reminded me of games in middle school, with player versus player fights and DMs even encouraging it.

The odd thing is that Wes has an old history of doing this and I predicted it for last night's game.

[Scott]

If you're running an old style campaign, and can accommodate multiple groups of players adventuring at different times, then I think player vs. player activity can add another positive element to the game. But, if you are playing in what is the much more common style where there in one group of players, and it's the same party playing together week after week, party in-fighting becomes more of s derailment than anything else.
One of the reasons I've been so interested in trying out online gaming is that I really want to explore the possibilities of the former style of gaming, but I don't have the time to run a campaign like that on a face to face basis.

[GRWelsh]

We turned out to be 5th and 6th level characters, but only found that out at the very end of the game. Some specifics were that Wes started by taking each player aside to give us our backgrounds. Mine was this nightmarish scene of the broken idol of the Lich-Lord, and an evil half-demon priestess performing a ritual on my character, culminating with her putting a black, beating heart through my forehead into my character's skull. I woke up after coming through a magical gate onto a mostly featureless plain with four large, dimly glowing stones at compass points around the gate. I had amnesia, only knowing my name -- Mirabilis -- and dimly recalling the nightmare images Wes had earlier described.

Mirabilis heard the demon-woman's voice in his head saying, "Find the map!" Mirabilis had two unique magic items, but didn't know everything about them: the rod of soullessness which would do damage to any living around him, and a black, long curved dagger of wim. He knew he was a magic-user wearing robes, belts and pouches, but did not even know what spells he had [Wes told me I just had to try to cast and he would tell me if it worked] Mirabilis began by casting detect magic on the stone gate and compass stones and confirmed they radiated conjuration school magic. It was a warm, moonless night, so he next cast continual light on a stone he found, and kept it in a pouch to use as a flashlight. He searched for writing or identifying features on the gate, stones and area around them but could find nothing. He then searched for roads or trails around the gate and didn't find any. I could dimly see a mountain or butte somewhat nearby. Since Mirabilis had nothing else to explore and it was the only feature in the landscape, he began walking towards the butte. As he got into rockier ground, Wes said the climb was becoming dangerous, so I decided Mirabilis would seek shelter among the rocks and wait until morning.

At sunrise, Mirabilis noticed some steps carved into the small mountain, and ascended them to find a ruined entry gate into what looked like an ancient fortress or temple. Rusted gates hung from the entry portal, and debris was strewn about, but none with writing or identifying marks. Proceeding further inside, all Mirabilis could discern was that the place had been ruined for hundreds or even thousands of years. With only one way to go, he came to a high vaulted hall with what appeared to be an altar, a brazier, a scroll tube and a stone map and surrounding alcoves each with what appeared to be a statue wearing an ancient style of armor. The vaulted ceiling was decorated with swirling, abstract metal designs. Again he cast detect magic, with all of these items radiating magic. As he moved forward to inspect the items, he felt like one of the statues had moved. Retreating a bit, he watched the statues closely, but saw no movement again. He moved forward again, careful not to touch anything and inspecting the map first, and could see the magical gate, compass stones, plain and mountain temple represented on it, as well as some other vague features, but no writing. I figured the statues were magical guardians that would be activated if the altar or magical treasure was touched... but the scroll tube intrigued me, and I could think of nothing else to do, so Mirabilis reached out to touch it. A burst of flames did 6 points of damage, as he withdrew a burning arm in pain and rolled onto the ground to put out the fire! As he was doing that, one of the 'statues' ran towards him! This statue turned out to not be a statue at all, but a high elf fighter who had been in temporal stasis, Brian's character Elkanen. Elkanen also had amnesia, and all he knew was he was supposed to guard this temple. So he attacked Mirabilis on sight, with his exceptional strength first tackling and then using grappling to put Mirabilis in a hold to do 1 point of damage. Mirabilis exclaimed "Unhand me, you fool! I mean you no harm!" and Brian responded by saying "I break his arm!" doing 8 more points of damage. Desperate, I told Wes, "I use the rod of soullessness!" It drained a level from Elkanen and restored Mirabilis somewhat. Elkanen responded by knocking Mirabilis out, taking all his items, tearing up his robes, hog-tying him with strips from them, and as Brian put it, breaking additional bones. Mirabilis woke up and feigned unconsciousness to observe Elkanen. Elkanen noticed Mirabilis was awake, and tried to question him. "Who are you?" Elkanen asked. "Who are you?" Mirabilis replied. "You're the one who's tied up so you'll answer the questions." Elkanen said, but Mirabilis didn't answer. Shrugging, Elkanen began to explore around the temple, including wrenching the brazier free which opened up the ceiling vault to allow a view of the sky. Then he ventured down the mountain towards the stone gate and compass stones. While he was doing this, Mirabilis was able to loosen his bonds and worm-crawl over to some stones sharp enough to cut the rest of his bonds. Without material components, he could only now attempt to cast spells with V or S components. Mirabilis watched Elkanen examine the compass stones but noticed the stone gate was no longer there -- it had vanished. Getting bored, Elkanen returned up to the temple, noticing Mirabilis was not he had been tied up. Several men looking like Mirabilis stepped out from behind the altar, all appearing to be casting spells. Mirabilis had cast mirror image just as Elkanen was re-entering the temple, and now was casting hold person. Mirabilis won the initiative, and the spell went off and Elkanen failed his save. Mirabilis quickly took his belongings back from the paralyzed elf, and then cast fly on himself and flew up right before the hold spell wore off. Elkanen attempted to grab the magic-user and throw things at him, but without any proper weapons and because of the duplicate images, missed. Mirabilis was free, and flew up into the sky, above the mountain.

[Scott]

That sounds like a good example for a ‘know your players’ lesson. Brian is not the type to play along nicely with some convoluted, railroady plot. Neither is Eric. Brian is your classic power gamer: kill things and accumulate treasure to become more powerful than everybody else. Eric just likes to mess with DMs.

[GRWelsh]

I actually had fun fighting Brian's character, but Wes seemed to completely not understand why we wouldn't team up later on for the big adventure. Wes did everything he could to try to put us back together, and I did everything I could to try to avoid Brian's character because he tortured and nearly killed me at the start of the game. I just was NOT getting on that train...

A big mistake Wes made was not specifying what edition we were playing. When I asked him, he said, "1st edition, 2nd edition, whatever." This created confusion and disputes later on. He had his 1st edition DMG and MM with him, so I grabbed my 1st ed. PH when rolling up my magic-user and referenced it for spells. Other players were using 2nd edition and stuff like weapon specialization and rules from the Complete Fighter's Handbook. One dispute in particular was around my invisibility spell. They couldn't believe it wasn't wearing off, and I read how it works directly out of the 1st edition PH. Someone tried to 'correct me' by reading from the 2nd edition PH about how it wore off after 24 hours. Then, Wes came up with this house rule on the spot about how it would be dispelled even if I took certain non-attack actions like casting any other spell (even non-combat) or pick pocketing (I can't pick pockets, but I cast invisibility on a thief as well, so that is how that came up). The reason this was in dispute at all is that I was successfully using invisibility for most of the latter half of the game to avoid Brian's character and the others played by Ray and Randy whom he had joined up with. They, along with Wes, were all trying to figure out how to negate my invisibility even though I was using it purely defensively. Wes kept having us -- Eric, Mark and myself who were the 'other faction' -- encounter them even though we were explicitly trying to avoid them and we were a halfling, thief and an invisible magic-user, respectively. Nevertheless, we kept 'running into them' along the road, in the tavern, at a campfire, and finally when they tracked us to the halfling's hideaway, a little ramshackle hut in the marsh, which is where we ended for the night.

I didn't mind us being pitted against each other, but the rules confusion and rules lawyering to try to gain an advantage... that was irritating.

[GRWelsh]

The players and characters were, in order of appearance:

- Myself/Mirabilis, NG, 5th level magic-user with amnesia and disoriented by nightmares of a half-demon priestess saying "Find the Map" and "Follow the Map" which led to a spot in the marsh.
- Brian/Elkanen, CN, 6th level high elf fighter, also has amnesia, apparently is from ancient times, specialized with a long sword, high dexterity, AC -8 with his magical temple guard armor.
- Mark/Billy Ragg, N, 6th level thief, rescued from a gibbet-cage along the Keep Road by Mirabilis, went the entire game without ever getting a weapon, AC -2 with high dex and magical bracers.
- Ray/Oton Battlefury, CG, 6th level dwarf cleric, wealthy, paying Estarel and later Elkanen to accompany to some mission he had in the marsh, seeming to coincide with mine (never got the details).
- Randy/Estelar, CG, 6th level gray elf fighter, hired to or appointed to accompany and protect the dwarf Oton on his mission to the place of the Troll King in the marsh to the east.
- Eric/Stinkfoot Muckstomper, CN, 6th level halfling stout fighter, later revealed to be former infamous bandit leader the "Rogue Baron" and a 6th/6th level fighter/thief. Filthy little drunk.

At the end of the game, Wes said we had all started out with exactly 40,000 XP each, and then told us our levels, as listed above. In 1st edition rules, a magic-user needs 40,001 XP to reach 6th level, and in 2nd edition needs 40,000 XP to reach 6th level. So, it matters which rules are we playing with. Also, does this total include XP we got on this first adventure? If we're playing 2nd edition, since I level drained Brian he should now be 5th level with 24,000 XP, Mark should be a 7th level thief with 40,000 XP, and Eric should be 5th/6th level fighter/thief with 20,000/20,000 XP.

[geneweigel]

This sounds like its getting to the root of things frustrating.

Ultimately its up to the DM and if its sketchy rules then its the sketchy universe.

As for spells being different in a crunched edition game there has to be some compromise and definitely no rule lawyering. Who is to say how a spell will guaranteed work the way it was designed? Tight campaigns where that one spell is a necessity to be used at POINT A so that the most expected behavior is designated or else, are really not my cup of tea. A spell might be used in a magical area that ruins it. How do you counter two characters same spell/different edition? Maybe give the "loser" some "winning" extras like more bonus?

The in-fighting by design is okay, I guess its all in the semantics. Personally, I would have told everyone upfront it was some kind of a duel especially if they were crusty.

[geneweigel]

Oops sorry I wrote "might cup of tea". Authentic frontier gibberish.

[GRWelsh]

The might cup of tea sounds like an interesting, unique magic item.

[geneweigel]

Maybe the lost Froideval manuscript...

[GRWelsh]

Ray and Randy texted about how they enjoyed the game, and I imagine Brian enjoyed it too. Those three had powerful, well-armed characters and even when they had a random encounter of multiple trolls in the marsh which at first seemed deadly, they won easily. By contrast, Mark was pissed about how his character never got a weapon the entire game (couldn't steal one, buy one or find one...) and only having 29 hp (4 below average since he was a thief with 16 Con, and they were his rolls even though done blind, so I'm not sure why that bothered him so much). Mark was so mad that I'm worried he might not be back, as last night's game pushed all of his buttons about the things that irritate him: his character being pathetic, Brian always seeming to have a powerful character, and a DM enjoying the disparity. Eric was pissed because at one point his character got arrested and thrown in jail and he was annoyed Mark and I left him. But in the context of the game we just met, and he was playing an uncharismatic drunk so effectively that we genuinely didn't like him! He was hilarious but also in a 'get me away from this guy' way... arguing with the barmaids, eating other people's leftover food, passing out in the gutter, etc. Mark successfully picked pockets only once and got 9 sp -- which was all the treasure that Mark, Eric and I 'had' the entire game -- and Eric's character compulsively drank most of it in a tavern. Actually, I just remembered Mark also stole a piece of jewelry worth 85 gp but we had nowhere to fence it so were unable to spend it. Our three characters went through most of the adventure without water, food or means to buy equipment or even get rooms at the inn. We were living among the harlots and low lifes of this keep before finally heading out to the marshes out of desperation just to do something, anything, after not succeeding at getting resources. I'm not kidding: Eric and Mark actually resorted to begging at the gate at one point! I had too much dignity to do that as a wizard, and I was prepared to starve if there was no honest way to make any money. This part really dragged because it was obvious Wes wanted us to rob the other characters, who were by contrast enjoying a sumptuous feast on the posh upper floor of the inn. We didn't take the bait, and the 'imposed seediness' dragged on for way too long. That's what I was talking about with the railroading of paradoxically trying to force the characters together while also setting up conflict. I haven't seen the group this divided over a game in a long time.

There were things that annoyed me, but I have to admit it was memorable!

[Scott]

Sounds like it could be a fun one shot/mini-campaign, but I don’t know how sustainable it could be.

[GRWelsh]

He's only planning to run a short 4 or 5 game campaign. Starting at mid-levels for a change was my suggestion.

[GRWelsh]

Mark has a plan to de-escalate the situation by negotiating with Ray's character. Wes actually seems to think we're going to come together into one big happy party to go on an adventure together. He's deluded but pulling out everything from his DM's bag of tricks to bring us all together. I think he has something planned with Cindy who was not there for the first game session. Here is my prediction: Wes is going to make Cindy's character a high elf princess or priestess that Brian's character has sworn loyalty to, and then he's going to direct her to attempt to get Brian and I to play nice together. I don't think Wes grasps that this campaign has been derailed from the moment Brian's character attacked my character without warning, and then tortured him by breaking his bones after he was already tied up... Brian will say, "I was just role-playing my character!" since Wes told him he had a feeling he had to guard the temple. But I will also say, "I'm just role-playing my character!" when my magic-user Mirabilis continues to avoid Brian's elf Elkanen and refuses to be in a party with him... I was envisioning Mirabilis like book Gandalf in personality, grumpy at times, but with a decent heart, and not the sort to hang out with brigands (i. e., he is neutral good). From the point of view of Mirabilis, Elkanen is most likely evil due to attacking without warning and especially the torture. Oh, yeah, and there was one other thing that I forgot to mention earlier: when my character's arm was on fire, Brian role played his character saying "Are you burning? You smell nice!" like a psychopathic cannibal. I didn't catch it at the time due to the in-game chatter, but later in the game the other players told me Brian said that, and they were repeating it and laughing.

[Scott]

When you're doing short runs, character development usually isn't an issue, and it's often a DM railroad ride. It's almost an extended con game.
I don't understand the effort put into the conflicting back stories and opposing alignments when the expectation was that everybody would just get along and adventure together. It sounds like it would be a better set up for a long term campaign where there were multiple parties and those factions could lead to some interesting gaming.

[geneweigel]

It all comes down to DM style as for me pulling a team together is always greed for more.

[GRWelsh]

Wes didn't choose our alignments -- he let us pick them. And notice we haven't divided along alignments lines -- Eric, Mark and Brian are neutral, and Ray, Randy and I are good, yet those aren't the two factions. He did give us backgrounds, but in retrospect, Wes wasn't pitting us against each other; it just played out that way. Of course, since we were role-playing characters who didn't know each other, and in some cases had amnesia, suspicion and misunderstandings were heightened possibilities. He directed Brian by telling him his character Elkanen woke up out of temporal stasis to see my character Mirabilis poking around the altar area, and had a feeling or heard a voice telling him he had to "protect the temple." My entrance into the altar area seemed to be what caused Elkanen to wake up. So, Elkanen wasn't totally unjustified in attacking Mirabilis. Yet, if that role had been given to a different player, it could have easily played out differently with a warning and then dialogue. But Brian chose the more violent option of attacking without warning. In response, I was not disposed to talk. I've since found out that Wes expected Mirabilis and Elkanen to leave the temple together and then make for the keep, which is where we would have met up with all the other player characters.

When this sort of thing happens... Is a DM better to just sit back and be neutral and let it play out, or intervene in a "Fate" sort of way by trying to manipulate them into playing nice together? Thoughts? My DM instinct is to let it play out.

Gene, how exactly would your 'greed for more' approach work? In my experience, greed is often another cause of in-party fighting. Yes, it can be a strong lure to a party overall, if they're already working together, but I don't see how it can bring player characters together if they're already at odds.

[geneweigel]

Simply a carrot on a stick in the wording where moving along is more profitable. Like an NPC says "What is that golden glow that is moving away from the area?" and when a player character asks say "It appears like the glow from magical weapons..."

[Scott]

I think if the DM wants a story driven campaign, then the intervention is probably better. Some of that has to fall on the players too. If you have limited playing time and you know there's a story the DM wants to get on with, then being overly self indulgent and derailing the story is just kind of being a jerk.

[geneweigel]

If its an hour for me as a DM and the characters refuse to move along then I get antsy. I sometimes have a palpable multi-option "story" (Large scale battles with non-involvement but open door by players, tracking someone/thing down, etc.) but if its just dragged out in-fighting then its time to abort.

One of the DMs that used to play all the time in Connecticut in high school was a DM that fostered in-fighting constantly. He wasn't very creative and had a lot of blunt pre-packaged adventures. Not as bad as the "story mode" DMs of the 90's but probably worse.