Greyhawk Monks

[Scott]

What monk characters have been included in Greyhawk products? I know of Turuko, the whole Scarlet Brotherhood thing, and T. Dee and T. Dum from the EX module, but who else is there? One of the Slave Lords is a monk I think. Anybody else?
Scott

[GT]

Going back to the Slave Lords, the Evil Cleric in A-3 is Mordrammo, but becomes Stalman Kim in A-4; and Brother Milerjoi, a 9th lvl Monk in A-3, is replaced by Brother Kerin, a 6th lvl Monk in a-4! ^__^

[Merkholz]

There's also a monk among the pregenerated characters for C2 and the introduction mentions his monastery.

M

[ghul]

Somewhat related, I have a creative player IMC who created a group of monks called The Journeymen. They follow Fharlangn, travelling the roads and preaching his wisdom.

--Ghul

[GT]

As I've said before elsewhere, the best way to look at Oeridian Monks is like the Haruchai in the Thomas Covenant books; with superior training and focus to a cause (or deity). The Scarlet Brotherhood monks strike me more as the current-day real world "white supremacists" that learn martial arts for all the wrong reasons...

[ghul]

There was actually a recent episode of Dr. Who called "Tooth and Claw" whose shaved-head, warrior monks had me thinking of the Scarlet Brotherhood.

[Scott]

Since I started this thread, I've thought aboutthe issue a bit. The topic recently came up on Canonfire, and I posted a few replies. The following exchange explain my view of the SB and monks in general. My initial post was in response to a comment tha the SB had most of the top monk levels locked up:

Me: Keeping it 1E-based, there would probably only be one SB monk in the hierarchy. The Father of Obedience is the Master of Autumn. The only true SB ‘monastery’ may be in the hidden capital city. Since they are probably the largest order in the Flanaess, maybe one or two might be up there. The regional alignment map has the SB territory listed as LN, so I wouldn’t say it was an absolute that they would all be LE.
I would use the PH chances for the hierarchy monks, making six of them LG, three LN, and three LE. Making them all, or even mostly, SB monks seems like a monopoly that should be avoided.

DMPrata:
Even discounting later products, from a strictly Gygaxian perspective (so sad to use that word posthumously for the first time ), we know there are a goodly number of Baklunish monks who follow Xan Yae. Would Gary have had those monks included in the same hierarchy as the Suel-supremacist Scarlet Brotherhood? (I'd actually been meaning to shoot him an E-mail asking that very question....) You were pretty well attuned to his way of thinking, Scott. What do you think?

Yours truly: The Scarlet Brotherhood isn’t the hierarchy, and vice versa. The Scarlet Brotherhood is an entity outside the ‘one’ monkish tradition. The Father of Obedience is a member of the monkish tradition. He is also a member of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Neither sets policy for the other. There are a couple of analogies I can think of.
Throughout my life I have studied martial arts. Around the Pittsburgh area there are multiple schools that teach the same art (the One monkish order). Often you discover that members from one dojo (Tuco’s monastery) don’t like/bad mouth/whatever and etc. members from other dojos (the Father of Obedience‘s monastery). They each have their own beliefs that the other should not be allowed to exist, but those beliefs are not a part of the art they study; they are their own personal beliefs. The members of each dojo may share some of the same beliefs, but those beliefs are still outside of the teachings of whatever art they are studying. Above these dojos is the governing body of the art, that has no part in the rivalry that exists between the two dojos.

It’s like if a freemason went off and founded a new country based on beliefs that were his own, and not those of the Freemasons. He would now be president of the country (the Father of Obedience) and still a freemason (Master of Autumn of the 'one' monkish tradition).

Or Finally, consider the Monkish order to be like Hogwarts where Harry Potter studies next to Draco Malfoy (a Scarlet Brotherhood poster boy).

[GT]

Below is something I added as an addenda to the Monk listing several years ago, and I still use it--and it would apply in the Oriental settings as well...

PH, pg. 32: Note that on the strictures referring to Monks, the limited number of Masters applies to a given order. Therefore, the followers of Xan Yae have a Grand Master of Flowers, but so, too, the temple of Rao and the Scarlet Brotherhood!

[Scott]

I used to think of it that way too, but just recently switched to one organization. I like the intrigues and rivalries/faction within a single organization.

[GT]

I went that route because Gary had to clarify the same issue with Druids back in the day (I'd already done that... ^__^)

[dcas]

The upgraded Monk in Dragon magazine assumes multiple monkish hierarchies IIRC.

It seems to me, however, if there are multiple monkish hierarchies then it's not really clear why they should all operate under the same rules. Like, why should an LG order follow the same rules as the Scarlet Brotherhood? No, I think Scott is right.

[GT]

Well, Shaolin, Wudang and Tibetan Tang monks all came from common sources and shared some practices, but they had their own hierarchies. Likewise taekwando and kempo are both martial arts forms, but have their own belt systems and masters...

[GT]

It would be rather like a Cavalier from Furyondy meeting one from Nyrond--they might share similar chivalrous codes, but they serve different lords.

[Scott]

Well, just like the PH description for clerics is generic, and each religion can be customized, the same thing could apply for monks, but I, personally, like the singular monk tradition approach.

[ghul]

dcs said:

The upgraded Monk in Dragon magazine assumes multiple monkish hierarchies IIRC.

It seems to me, however, if there are multiple monkish hierarchies then it's not really clear why they should all operate under the same rules. Like, why should an LG order follow the same rules as the Scarlet Brotherhood? No, I think Scott is right.

Any idea what issue that was, DCS?

[dcas]

No, I don't, but it was definitely in one of the "Best of the Dragon" volumes (I-V). I couldn't tell you which one (I've sold mine as well as my CD archive). But I remember that they receive d6 hit dice instead of d4, top out at level 22 (or something like that), and once they reach a certain level can start their own orders.

The HackMaster monk is very similar to the Dragon magazine version.

[dcas]

gt said:

Well, Shaolin, Wudang and Tibetan Tang monks all came from common sources and shared some practices, but they had their own hierarchies. Likewise taekwando and kempo are both martial arts forms, but have their own belt systems and masters...

Of course, but we're talking about a game, GT.

[geneweigel]

The KuoToans have monk-like fighters called monitors as seen in D2 and D3.

There are 3 evil monks in AGAINST THE CULT OF THE REPTILE GOD who worship the naga but considering the development of this module it seems it was half-heartedly "Greyhawk" from information garnered in Dragon magazine years later in the author's bio:

In January, 1982, Doug left his teaching
job and came to work for TSR as a game de-
signer. “For the first few weeks I reviewed
and critiqued outside submissions, and I
wasn’t too good at it. I kept pestering my
boss, Al Hammack, for a design assign-
ment, and finally he gave me an old brief
for a novice-level module, Cult of the Rep-
tile God, and told me to write it. I completed
it in four weeks, and it was published. I
don’t know whether they liked it because it
was good, or because I did it in only four
weeks.”

[GT]

I'm sorry, but I just can't see Lawful Good monks "hobnobbing" with the likes of the Scarlet Brotherhood. At best, two Grand Masters of Flowers might meet under a truce for some reason, or attempt to resolve "whose Kung Fu is better"...

[GT]

The monk article referenced above was from Dragon #53, but was also reprinted in Best of Dragon #3 from 1983.