Artifact of Evil notes

[foster1941]

I'm currently re-reading Artifact of Evil for the first time since the spring of 1986, and it's much better than I had remembered (I think the later books cast a retroactive pall over it). As akways, Gary's dialogue is weak, as are the characterizations of the main protagonists (the antagonists and supporting characters who arose from actual play - like Melf and Tenser - fare better), but the large-scale plotting and all the Greyhawk detail are top-notch - it really feels like the culmination of threads that had been developing and percolating for a decade+, a real living world/campaign. It feels natural, not cheesy, the way so many of the characters and locations from the modules show up. The events of the novel feel like something you could imagine playing through, with your PCs in the place of Gord and company, if you were part of Gary's campaign. It takes world of the compartmentalized stand-alone modules and shows how they are all woven together into a bigger tapestry. It feels inspiring to me, not in the sense of having players in my games re-enact the events of the novel or play second-fiddle to its characters, Forgotten Realms-style, but that I can use the raw materials of the setting in the same way to tell my own stories: taking the situation at (or a bit before) the beginning of the novel as the starting line, this is how it worked out for Gary, let's see how it will work out differently for me.

Anyway, aside from that, I've been taking mental notes on various setting details and game-related stuff. A lot of it we've already covered and discussed before (losels, Melf, etc.) but a few things stood out to me that I can't recall seeing discussed previously (though, admittedly, I haven't been paying too close attention):

1) Is the "nightgaunt" that Nerull rides an existing AD&D creature? (Lovecraft's nightgaunts aren't included in D&Dg and, at any rate, don't seem to match the description of this creature)

2) Is the "water dragon" that's allied with Tenser a lung wang from FF or something else?

3) Tenser talks at length about both tracking and masking use of magical power and displays a map of the Flanaess showing where magical energies are most concentrated; is this a reference to something existing in the AD&D system (maybe some of the spells added in UA) or is this something new? If the latter, I'm thinking these are good additions to the savant class I've been occasionally working on, sort of a macro-scale, high-level variant of Detect Magic (plus a separate Masking spell)

4) In that same conversation Tenser also alludes to "ley line" type magical geography, and that his castle was built in a particularly magic-rich location, which is something that isn't addressed in any other Greyhawk material (at least in the Gary era) but feels like it's worth doing something with (though OTOH this is maybe just best left as incidental/ad-hoc color: once we declare all of the key areas - Greyhawk Castle, the TOEE, the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, the Valley of the Mage, the Vault of the Drow, etc. - are located in such areas and use it is a handwavey explanation for why there's such concentrations of magic and monsters and planar gates there, we don't necessarily need to delve into any further systemized detail than that)

I've still got a bit left to go in the re-read; if anything else pops up I'll probably add it to this thread. In the meantime, thoughts from others on any of the above, or anything else in this novel, are very welcome

[geneweigel]

In regards to when that came out, in 1986, it was under hostile conditions from corporate so thats why all negative opinions were reinforced about everything from the writing to the continuity. Even those not directly profiting from Gygax's TSR ouster were unfettered in condemning the fallen regime.

I think all that you reference was "new monster new" and probably intended for some new content. Whether or not any of that lingered in TSR products is probably null and void considering the Greyhawk franchise was continued "as published" without anything new (E.g. CITY OF GREYHAWK set, GREYHAWK ADVENTURES hardcover, etc.)

As far as speculation, the only thing that I can think of offhand was when he spoke of Oerth being the most magical in POLYHEDRON #21 (1985 but 1984 is written in text of article):

By the way, action lakes place on Yarth , a
place somewhat similar to Oerth, the setting
of Greyhawk, et. al. It has fewer magical
properties than Oerth but more than Earth.
It is not impossible that additional works
will be contracted for in months to come,
action being set on Yarth or perhaps another
alternate world, Aerth. On Earth, magic is
virtually non-existent. On Uerth, dweomers
are weak, chancy things. Yarth has a sprinkling
of things magical, Aerth is highly
magical, and Oerth is pure magic.

I posted here about where I thought "Learth" (The LEJENDARY ADVENTURES world) was on that scale:

doomsdaygames.proboards.com/post/13804

So perhaps this is the reasoning that magic is vast that its readable. Or it could be justification for less maintenance of product and less effort on new concepts ala the way TSR went under Williams.

[foster1941]

Iuz's forces include large numbers of orcs (per both this novel and the WOG set) which never sat comfortably with me because, of course, the MM says orcs are lawful evil and Iuz is thoroughly chaotic evil. It doesn't follow. And yet, the original Strategic Review article that established two-axis alignment (and the Holmes-edit Basic Set that followed its guide) listed orcs as chaotic evil and the monster organization essay on DMG p. 104 also describes orcs as chaotic. I'm not going to say that's correct and that LE is wrong - after all we also have the counter-example of orc soldiery in the Horned Society and Great Kingdom - but it does seem likely that in Gary's mind orcs weren't as tied to lawful evilness as the MM listing would suggest and that their alignment listing should probably be modified to "Any Evil" with the differentiation likely on a tribe by tribe basis, heavily influenced by the character of their tribal boss - so the orcs serving Iuz are CE, those serving the Horned Society and Great Kingdom are LE, and those in the Pomarj, Bone March, and assorted wilderness areas are a mix of both (and perhaps even some universally-despised NE tribes). That fits the way orcs are depicted in Gary's material and helps explain inter-tribal rivalry so it feels like a win-win.

[geneweigel]

I don't know. I see it like this:

LE demigod using CE troops? No, CE demigod using LE troops? Yes.

Here is a relevant quote from DRAGON MAGAZINE article FROM THE SORCERER'S SCROLL: EVIL: LAW VERSUS CHAOS by Gary Gygax (AUG 1979):

While the weaker
chaotic evil creatures fear and often hate the stronger, they are ruled by
them only insofar as the reach of the stronger extends — and possibly
only as long as the stronger has interest in so doing. The individual evil is
more important than the collective one. Let each evil being do its best to
spread evil and chaos, and the ultimate result will be a cancerous spread
of the alignment. Order is next to good in undesirableness, so lawful
good is the antithesis of chaotic evil. Yet creatures of this alignment will
not long associate to combat their hated foes, except lesser creatures
under the leadership of some mighty demon or in extreme situations
where the very structure of chaotic evil is threatened by some great
coalition of good. A demon is not interested in ruling nations but in
spreading evil as it alone sees fit. Therefore, possession by a creature of
chaotic evil is typically of an unstable individual who will run amok for
short time, or of some singular figure who will be in a position to send
out many such individuals.

This kind of applies to CE using LE stooges. But in Iuz' case it gets weird. Where he can use the orcs but not always.

Thats why you have orcs in prison in T1-4 for being lawful but in WOG Folio its hordes of Euroz and associated humanoids used as mercenaries by both sides.

[GRWelsh]

I'd like to reread the series with an eye towards making notes on the world-building detail -- especially how it all tied in with lore of the classic modules. The Gord books were like a template for an epic AD&D campaign with progress of a lowly novice up through mid levels and then finally as a hero rubbing shoulders with important personages and demigods. It is a progression implied in the rule books, which EGG was making it explicit in the fiction. There was a sort of 'ideal campaign' feel to it, plotted out with Gord going from a nobody with 0 X.P. up to mid levels roaming around the Flanaess adventuring with Chert and others, eventually finding out he is a somebody after all and taking on the mantle of divine champion. There was a "hang in there, there's more to you than you realize" theme which I wished had been more in the forefront. I often wonder what would have happened if EGG had stuck to writing more short stories before tackling an epic fantasy series, and if he had not been ousted from TSR in the midst of writing that series.

[Scott]

Remember that Iuz’s alignment is CE (N), so that provides some flexibility. You could make orcs any evil, I think 3E + made CE, but I picture orcs as more disciplined, organized fighters, à la the LotT movies.

[geneweigel]

Jun 8, 2019 18:23:34 GMT -5 Scott said:

Remember that Iuz’s alignment is CE (N), so that provides some flexibility. You could make orcs any evil, I think 3E + made CE, but I picture orcs as more disciplined, organized fighters, à la the LotT movies.

That is spot on for the way I see it. Adding hobs and gobs as the associated humanoids that are mercs along the lines of the DMG.

[foster1941]

Yeah, on second thought I can see ostensibly-LE orcs following a strong CE leader. That fits with something Gary told me in one of his public Q&A threads - that while the alignments of the undead are more representative of their “side” in the cosmic conflict, that humanoid alignments are more utilitarian and practical - that the individually-weaker races were all LE not out of some higher devotion to deviltry but because, being weak individually, they need to rely on numbers and organization to survive, while the stronger races don’t have that need and thus are more likely to tend towards CE and individual strength over group organization.

A couple more notes from the last few chapters (which I finished reading this morning):

1. Is the spell Mordenkainen used to defeat the Type VI demon something from the game? (I’m not so familiar with all the highest level spells, especially the UA ones). Also, it seems Type VI demons need a substantial power-boost over their MM stats - I can’t see Mordenkainen + Felnorith + Yrag/Eraj + a cloud dragon + 2 griffons having so much trouble against an 8+8 HD Type VI as described in the MM.

2. The devil-pig that slew Gord was presumably a “Greater Rakshasa” analogous to the Greater Lammasu and Greater Shedu in the MM2. Presumably it requires +4 or better weapons to hit since Chert’s axe (defined as +3 in the afterword of SoOS) bounced off (which also tells us Chert hadn’t yet hit 10th level, where barbarians naturally strike as +4 weapons). .

3. What to make of the Horned Society serving Nerull and having armies of daemons, demodands, and hordlings (all NE) when the WOG set calls them LE devil-worshippers. A retcon by Gary (the NE planes/races weren’t so well defined in 1980) or another example (like the Tharizdun-worshipping inner circle of the Scarlet Brotherhood) of a secret NE cabal using LE as a (perhaps more widely palatable?) false public face?

4. There’s no reason the events depicted in this book had to accelerate towards the culmination in the NIPI Gord books. With the first two keys firmly in the hands of opposed forces there’s no rush to have tracked down the third part and hastened the release of Tharizdun. Had things gone differently in the courts in 1986 and Gary retained/regained control of TSR, the post-AoE era could have become a new status quo for high level adventures. We already saw this in WG6 which was published before but seems to be set after AoE (with Tenser having been inducted into Bigby’s Circle presumably to replace one of the three mages killed in the Vesve battle, and Iggwilv’s power over daemons presumably coming from her control over the NE theopart). So the events depicted in the book don’t have to be only a possible future but could also be background for the present - what’s going on elsewhere in the world while the PCs are busy putting down the giant-drow threat in the west, looting the tomb of horrors, gallivanting on other planes, etc. That’s how I treated it back in 86, when I put a big X through the Horned Society entry in my WOG set and added a note under Iuz that it was really ruled behind the scenes by Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy - background detail in a campaign that was centered in and around the South Province.

[Scott]

I was never a fan of the NE Horned Society. In my campaign they're still LE devil worshippers. At first I didn't like the Nerull connection with the Scarlet Brotherhood, but it has grown on me. I see.a schism between the strict adherents to the original doctrine and purpose of the SB, and a newer faction more attracted to power, and willing to work with the NE priests of a Flan god to acquire it. They infiltrated the Dark Druids in the same way. In my campaign the priests of Nerull are very active and play a big part my long term ideas.

[TimS]

The Horned Society were more prominent in my AD&D campaign as well, and remained LE devil worshippers, although I used much of the novels.

[geneweigel]

Here is an interesting bit on orcs in the Horned Society from ARTIFACT OF EVIL:

"Mole, you are assigned to work with Olive of my Lesser Six. You are to take a force of buheer and nonuz. You
will command them, My regiment of Black Death, and a company of drow. You are to invade the lands of the
Hierarchs, raise the wild Uroz and free reavers there, and march on Molag! I want My city back!"

Anti-establishment "Uroz" (Euroz: Orcs)?

[geneweigel]

A little further into Chapter 17 from the last quote (page 189) on page 190 it has Iuz using kobolds and goblins as well (celbit and jebli):

"Halga, My Grand Priestess, and Vayne, too, for your magic, you two shall remain here for staff duty. Radduj,
Beesting - a fine pair to venture into the upper reaches of the Vesve. There you will whip the sniveling Celbits and Jebli
into a frenzy of hate against men and elves. Make the forest and the northern portion of the Valley of Highfolk a
charnel house. You will have assistance."

[geneweigel]

In regards to the Horned Society's alignment (In the novel), I don't think any of the info in AOE contradicts that it is an overwhelmingly lawful evil society and its well known as being ruled by lawful evil devil-servants. The whole novel is loaded with citations of that but we are revealed in the novel that it operates under the Gygaxian "tier system" behind closed doors where the Upper hierarchs (the three) serve Hades and the peripherals (Gehenna and Tarterus) and the Lower Hierarchs (the ten) serve deviltry. Which was always the way according to the novel. Iuz also reminisces about his confinement and how he didn't mind that some of his allies went to support the Horned Society.

In the same sentence (In Chapter 8), Iuz remarks that he knows they are loving chaotic evil leaning towards neutral but they are all "ranked" lawful evil:

He, Iuz! It had
taken many years to manage an escape, because the one who confined him was so irrational that no normal reasoning
could break the bonds, but break free he did - only to find the lickspittle servants of Hades and Tarterus lording it over
a portion of his realm. Yes, these demodand-kissing little humans and their masses of ranked fireball fodder had
proclaimed the eastern half of Iuz, His Realm, as theirs.

and that Iuz had been approached at least once in the past to be an ally (Or a hierarch?):

" Iuz will nor bend his knee to anyone! Cursed be the Hierarchs and their diabolical masters! Twice cursed be those
red-gowned nigglings who call themselves the Scarlet Brotherhood! Thrice damned to everlasting and tormented sleep
be their Dark One, the one to bind all Evil together... never!"

"The Three" (NE/NE(c)/NE(l)) are slain by Gord and when we see the meeting of the rest there is a remark about them needing to be replaced.

A huge demon versus devils and daemons battle where demons win Molag has "The Ten" (LE) fleeing South and Iuz taking over.