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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Oct 28, 2017 13:33:30 GMT -5
Gene: have you gotten any further on your T1-4 add on module?
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 29, 2017 10:17:41 GMT -5
After reading this, I worked on some last night. Its a big work but its all in place. I could run it right now but it needs ironing. Some maps are crisp as fuck and others are swampy. There is a major figure that I'm creating as a Gygaxian homage in all ways and he needs more attention (accoutrements, drawing, etc)
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Oct 29, 2017 11:48:42 GMT -5
Gene: sounds great! Getting ready to DM a campaign in Hommlet with noobs, so I look forward to checking out your new material - I would be more than willing to purchase and play test?!
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Post by Scott on Dec 29, 2017 11:02:24 GMT -5
One thing I don’t remember noticing in the past was the line in T1, when describing the track to the Moathouse, stating the track continues seven leagues past the Moathouse to the Temple area. A lot farther than the six miles to Nulb mentioned in the background. I wonder if the ‘six miles’ was a typo and it should have been leagues too? Six miles always seemed a little too close.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 29, 2017 11:18:42 GMT -5
One thing I don’t remember noticing in the past was the line in T1, when describing the track to the Moathouse, stating the track continues seven leagues past the Moathouse to the Temple area. A lot farther than the six miles to Nulb mentioned in the background. I wonder if the ‘six miles’ was a typo and it should have been leagues too? Six miles always seemed a little too close. [br I remember reading this distance discrepancy when I was prepping T1 for play as DM of my first Greyhawk campaign at twelve years old in 1979/1980. I had previously read Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, but had to refresh what a league was in comparison to a mile. I haven't resolved yet how far to place Nulb from the moathouse and Hommlet for the new campaign I have underway. I learned a lot reading through T1 again, and had to go back and refresh understanding of various various cask capacities at the Inn: hogsheads, pipes, butts, tuns, etc.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Dec 29, 2017 23:17:57 GMT -5
As already mentioned upthread, I harmonized those references when I drew my area map by making the trace route very circuitous, while the road from Hommlet to Nulb is a direct line.
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Post by Scott on Dec 29, 2017 23:20:44 GMT -5
I considered re-reading the thread thinking there was a possibility it was in there.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 13, 2018 12:42:43 GMT -5
I like that idea a lot, for a sandbox area around Hommlet. I also like the variation for several years prior to T1 instead of after. The prior period would predate the construction of Burne and Rufus' tower and many folk who are listed as newcomers to the village. I agree a T1 prequel would be a great idea! There are some good nuggets in the text of VOH to get it started: 1) who was the vile cleric of damnation at the moat house? 2) who was the warlock rumored to be at the moat house? 3) who was the former Black lord of the fortress whose chambers were at key #7? 4) who was the majordomo at the moat house, and what significant task(s) were overseen by this individual - reference key #15? Was this a castellan-type or head steward of a royal household role to be more specific - if so, who was the rightful owner of the moat house? Did this individual officiate a significant malevolent wedding at the moat house (the majordomo in les miserables officiated the wedding of Marius and Cosette, and introduced the swindling innkeepers couple Thenardiers as attendees? 5) what were the upper level and towers of the moat house at that time? 6) was the fiery eye garb in use then, or something else? 7) who was the castle troop leader or petty official at key #10 at the moat house? 8) how were the moat house dungeons used in the past? Were they different then - in Lareth's time modified or expanded? Are there any lost areas due to the destruction of the moat house? It appears it is possible there could have been another secret stairway down at key #7 that is now collapsed in rubble at the corner of this room, leading to a dungeon area in the empty space near dungeon level 5, 7, 8, 12? Maybe even extending further across and above the ghouls' key #14 lair/sarcophagi/crypt area?
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 15, 2018 12:19:57 GMT -5
My idea for a prequel was more along the lines of simply using Hommlet as a base location set between the events of CY 569 when the Temple fell and CY 579 when T1 "happens" -- developing the countryside around Hommlet with lairs, caves, mines, or other adventuring sites. So, maybe the adventurers are there during the in between period, stamping out the last of the monsters, or perhaps even being the ones who delivered the ashes of the monstrous troll who was plaguing the villagers during that time: maybe CY 575, around the time the Guide is set, an adventure making use of the Village of Hommlet as a location, but not necessarily making use of the moat house which ruined and truly abandoned during this period.
As to your other questions, I have always assumed the "vile cleric of damnation" at the moat house was the same person as the black lord of the place, and the warlock, major-domo, castle troop leader/petty official referenced were his human minions and all part of the forces of the Temple of Elemental Evil when it was expanding outward in concentric circles to subjugate the surrounding countryside. Major-domo in this context is probably more like head butler or steward in charge of the non-combatant servants. The moat house with dungeon was built circa 567-569, and "the builders planned for a long tenancy, although expectations were not met" (per the description for the BURIAL CRYPTS in #14 on the Dungeon Level). The upper level and towers of the moat house were for living spaces and guard posts for the rest of the garrison and servants... for the "black lord of the fortress, a vile cleric of damnation, and his evil men and humanoid troops" (I think it is clear the black lord is being identified as a vile cleric of damnation, and this is not referring to two separate persons, because this description is immediately followed up by 'his' rather than 'their' evil men and humanoid troops). The Temple forces were in full swing in regards to building projects, since they had just transformed a small chapel into the cathedral-like stone Temple with fortified outer walls and extensive dungeon levels beneath "in but three years." So building the moat house and its single dungeon level shouldn't have been too difficult for them. Also, they had magic to assist and expedite any building projects. The Fiery Eye symbol seems to have originated as representing the Elder Elemental God (similar to what is in G3) but later was revised to represent the Temple of Fire, one of the four lesser factions -- so the answer to the question of whether this symbol was in use in the past depends on when you imagine the four lesser factions being established. I think there certainly are lost areas due to the destruction, both above and below ground... There probably have been some repairs done in Lareth's time... A planned dig into other lost areas of the Dungeon Map is a great idea.
Several years ago -- maybe ten years ago or more, at this point! -- Paul Stormberg commissioned a miniature-scale model of the pre-ruined moat house, and used it to play out the battle set in CY 569, at a Lake Geneva Game Convention. He posted photos of it on the Dragonsfoot forums, and it was pretty impressive! I think they used CHAINMAIL Fantasy Supplement rules or something similar. I remember he made use of the older symbol of Y within a triangle on the flag of the as-yet unruined moat house.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 15, 2018 17:22:46 GMT -5
I had in the past read through the VOH description quickly, and assumed the "black lord of the fortress" and "vile cleric of damnation" were describing a solitary individual.
Reading it more closely now, I think it is possible that this is describing two different individuals. Again, this is an edited section in TOEE versus the original VOH module - TOEE takes "black lord of the fortress" out of the Ruins of the Moathouse introduction completely!
When I hear "black lord of the fortress", it sounds most like a level title reference to a "name" level fighter = 9th or higher level? And a wicked cleric seems to me to be something and someone else? Wouldn't this fit well if the original moat house advance force was a band of brigands, led by a 9th or 10th level fighter lord, as per typical in MM {of course with a lieutenant, guards, and other high level fighters per MM}? And the brigands also had a 8th level magic-user warlock, a higher level {5th or 6th level} vile cleric of damnation and a lower level {3rd or 4th level} cleric, all as per typical in MM? Is it a dirty little secret that it so happens that some former leaders at the moat house escaped and are now revitalizing the Temple, and that these include both Senshock {original warlock at the moat house} and Hedrack {original vile cleric of damnation at the moat house}?
The VOH module versus TOEE module also has differing description for the mercenary men at the tower {this is what they are referred to in VOH module}, Mentzerism changes this title to Burne's Badgers - no?!! This is despite originating in VOH module, "Rufus leads a squad of men-at-arms, and has been appointed as the overall commander of the village troops as well." Give Rufus his due - he is the troops direct leader with 14 charisma and this text statement in VOH. Maybe this would have been more clear if Burne's ability scores weren't dropped in TOEE module? From VOH, he has a 12 charisma. Also, Rufus, not Burne, "when he reaches 8th level, he is to return to Verbobonc for special service on the Viscount's behalf."
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 16, 2018 9:01:28 GMT -5
I think it is a good thing to be keyed into the precise use of words and level titles when reading what EGG wrote, because that can often be a key to the meaning -- 'lord' in game terms is a 9th or higher level fighter, and so on. I also think it is good to try to match up what EGG wrote here with what he wrote elsewhere to try to find parallels, like looking at the brigand entry in the MM. So, it is possible EGG meant two different individuals, with the black lord as a high level fighter, and a vile cleric of damnation as someone else... But I doubt it, due to the grammar as I stated, and also due to the fact the Temple of Elemental Evil is a cleric-led organization with magic-users, fighters, thieves, assassins, etc. all in secondary positions. Hedrack is the Supreme Commander and he's a cleric. Lareth is a cleric and the New Master, implying that he's the new version of whomever was master before... a vile cleric of damnation would be a close fit.
At the end of the day, none of this really matters, and as the DM you can modify the backstory to be whatever you prefer. These background details are tidbits most players will never find out or even be curious about, anyway... I often feel like EGG is just throwing the DM/reader a few bones in regards to what he was thinking about when constructing the backstory in his own mind... Imagining life in the moat house prior to it being ruined: i.e., a somewhat typical castle life with a major-domo, servants, a crypt, funerals, etc. even though they were evil.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 16, 2018 9:47:27 GMT -5
I agree but also its good to know the details because the corporation destroyed everything good about published D&D with its glib detail free positions.
The average module from the 90's was extra wordy with no descriptions and details unless it was ephemera like backstory of characters and history, statements on politics, moods and feelings, and then a bland cut/paste of monster stats.
Thats why the old Gygax stuff is like gold. Even contemporaries like Lakofka, Kuntz, and Mentzer just aren't at that "level". The Gygax "level" shines insight into design of game elements. Although because it was done during that time where design concept was still considered his contemporaries are worth considering. Mentzer must have hustled his ass in the 80's because he never introduced anything catchy.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 16, 2018 10:56:32 GMT -5
I think it is a good thing to be keyed into the precise use of words and level titles when reading what EGG wrote, because that can often be a key to the meaning -- 'lord' in game terms is a 9th or higher level fighter, and so on. I also think it is good to try to match up what EGG wrote here with what he wrote elsewhere to try to find parallels, like looking at the brigand entry in the MM. So, it is possible EGG meant two different individuals, with the black lord as a high level fighter, and a vile cleric of damnation as someone else... But I doubt it, due to the grammar as I stated, and also due to the fact the Temple of Elemental Evil is a cleric-led organization with magic-users, fighters, thieves, assassins, etc. all in secondary positions. Hedrack is the Supreme Commander and he's a cleric. Lareth is a cleric and the New Master, implying that he's the new version of whomever was master before... a vile cleric of damnation would be a close fit. At the end of the day, none of this really matters, and as the DM you can modify the backstory to be whatever you prefer. These background details are tidbits most players will never find out or even be curious about, anyway... I often feel like EGG is just throwing the DM/reader a few bones in regards to what he was thinking about when constructing the backstory in his own mind... Imagining life in the moat house prior to it being ruined: i.e., a somewhat typical castle life with a major-domo, servants, a crypt, funerals, etc. even though they were evil. Is it possible that Hedrack is the Supreme Commander in the TOEE now, due to the dark lord of the fortress, {who may be the original "owner" who through magical, engineering, and financial means erected both the temple fortress and the moat house, and then had left the moat house in the care of a majordomo's stewardship and vile cleric of damnation with humanoid and evil men troops}, is now of unknown location and status? Perhaps if the original EGG manuscript had been unaltered and fully developed by EGG with Lolth and EEG, we might have something like a dark lord either trapped with Lolth in the Temple or else now progressing penetrating into the EEG level within the temple {under the thrall of an EEG artifact, or in search of greater power to lead as black lord under the EEG}?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 17, 2018 7:08:59 GMT -5
One thing I don’t remember noticing in the past was the line in T1, when describing the track to the Moathouse, stating the track continues seven leagues past the Moathouse to the Temple area. A lot farther than the six miles to Nulb mentioned in the background. I wonder if the ‘six miles’ was a typo and it should have been leagues too? Six miles always seemed a little too close. Ok, I'm working at resolving the area maps: 1) I'm sticking solely with references from the original T1 VOH module 2) The VOH module area map and map key notes could both have errors - assuming this not done completely by EGG and/or not reviewed carefully. 3) I find no high road text reference in the VOH module, so that is out. 4) OVERGROWN TRACK: This leads off into the rugged hills and tangled scrub above the town. About two or three miles away is a ruined moathouse... 5) After about two miles of distance, the land begins to sink and become boggy, as the track turns more northerly... 6) The track road continues past the ruins for many miles - seven leagues in fact - until the temple area is reached. 7) Nulb is six miles from Hommlet. Interpreting from 1) through 7): Note that the overgrown track leads off into the rugged hills and tangled scrub above the town. "Above" I take to mean in elevation, not necessarily north direction. So, I believe that the overgrown track leads straight east out of Hommlet for two miles, and then turns more northerly. The VOH module map is in error, showing a main road out of Hommlet to the east, with the overgrown track branching off of the east main road to the northeast - there is instead only the overgrown track going east out of Hommlet, no other main road heading east. This track turns more northerly and the land sinks and becomes boggy after two miles until the moathouse is reached. I believe that Burne and Rufus' castle is being constructed on hills next to the easterly overgrown track in order to watch it and guard Hommlet. The overgrown track then continues from the moathouse three to four miles until Nulb is reached. This makes Nulb an out-of-the-way settlement, matching the text. Therefore, the temple area is five leagues from Nulb, in an indeterminate direction. Note: The grammar is clunky about the low road location, but I take that it connects Verbobonc, Sobanwych, and Dyvers, following the south bank of the Vekverdyva River. So, to reach the low road from Hommlet, you have to head northwest out of Hommlet for 10 leagues to Verbobonc first.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 17, 2018 16:43:30 GMT -5
One thing I don’t remember noticing in the past was the line in T1, when describing the track to the Moathouse, stating the track continues seven leagues past the Moathouse to the Temple area. A lot farther than the six miles to Nulb mentioned in the background. I wonder if the ‘six miles’ was a typo and it should have been leagues too? Six miles always seemed a little too close. Ok, I'm working at resolving the area maps: 1) I'm sticking solely with references from the original T1 VOH module 2) The VOH module area map and map key notes could both have errors - assuming this not done completely by EGG and/or not reviewed carefully. 3) I find no high road text reference in the VOH module, so that is out. 4) OVERGROWN TRACK: This leads off into the rugged hills and tangled scrub above the town. About two or three miles away is a ruined moathouse... 5) After about two miles of distance, the land begins to sink and become boggy, as the track turns more northerly... 6) The track road continues past the ruins for many miles - seven leagues in fact - until the temple area is reached. 7) Nulb is six miles from Hommlet. Interpreting from 1) through 7): Note that the overgrown track leads off into the rugged hills and tangled scrub above the town. "Above" I take to mean in elevation, not necessarily north direction. So, I believe that the overgrown track leads straight east out of Hommlet for two miles, and then turns more northerly. The VOH module map is in error, showing a main road out of Hommlet to the east, with the overgrown track branching off of the east main road to the northeast - there is instead only the overgrown track going east out of Hommlet, no other main road heading east. This track turns more northerly and the land sinks and becomes boggy after two miles until the moathouse is reached. I believe that Burne and Rufus' castle is being constructed on hills next to the easterly overgrown track in order to watch it and guard Hommlet. The overgrown track then continues from the moathouse three to four miles until Nulb is reached. This makes Nulb an out-of-the-way settlement, matching the text. Therefore, the temple area is five leagues from Nulb, in an indeterminate direction. Note: The grammar is clunky about the low road location, but I take that it connects Verbobonc, Sobanwych, and Dyvers, following the south bank of the Vekverdyva River. So, to reach the low road from Hommlet, you have to head northwest out of Hommlet for 10 leagues to Verbobonc first. I did some more research, so I'm going to update: Celtic league = distance person could walk in about an hour Ancient Rome League = 1.5 Roman miles or approximately 1.38 contemporary miles CELTIC leagues & contemporary miles use in VOH module text? So, the moathouse is {two to three contemporary miles} originally four Celtic leagues from Hommlet, due to it takes four hours to walk it and clear the track. On subsequent trips after clearing, the moathouse is two Celtic leagues from Hommlet. Also, the track continues seven Celtic leagues from the moathouse to the temple area - would this mean again that it needs to be cleared on the first trip, taking seven leagues, and on subsequent trips, it only takes 3-1/2 leagues to travel from the moathouse to the Temple area? If this is the case, with Nulb being six {contemporary} miles from Hommlet, the Temple would be 3-1/2 to 5-1/4 {contemporary} miles from the moathouse, or either directly within, or at most approximately two {contemporary} miles from Nulb? ANCIENT ROME leagues & miles in text? The VOH module text states that the track is two to three miles from Hommlet to the moathouse. In that case, the moathouse is two to three ancient Roman miles from Hommlet, which is equivalent to 1-1/3 to 2 ancient Roman leagues. The track then continues another seven leagues, or 10-1/2 Roman miles to the Temple area. Nulb is six Roman miles, or four leagues from Hommlet. So, if the track is the sole most direct route from Hommlet to Nulb, it takes up to 2-2/3 Roman leagues more of travel to go from the moathouse to Nulb via this track. That leaves at least 4-1/3 Roman leagues, or another 6-1/2 Roman miles to reach the temple area from Nulb? In this case, I may elect to take the Celtic leagues and contemporary miles interpretation, assuming EGG may have been schooling his readers with Old Faith league measurements of the Celts?
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 18, 2018 9:33:04 GMT -5
I don't doubt that EGG knew about these different historic measurements, but I don't see any reason why he would be that esoteric in the module text. Across his writings he seemed to use 1 league = 3 miles on land... I don't remember any exceptions, anyway. The discrepancies in the distances in the text are most likely either because of a typo (six miles should have read six leagues) or different drafts... For example in one draft (original play), he may have had Nulb six miles away from Hommlet and perhaps in a later draft (preparing for publication) he decided to place it seven leagues past the moathouse -- 21 miles plus 3 miles along the overgrown track for a total of ~24 miles NE of Hommlet. So either he decided to change the distances and forgot to make an edit, or the earlier reference to six miles should have been six leagues -- and you can easily reconcile 18 miles with 24 miles by an "as a bird flies" versus the longer distance along a winding track.
I doubt the T1 village map is in error. This module was produced during the time when EGG still had a hands on approach and was just completing AD&D and the World of Greyhawk folio for publication (1978-79). I think it most likely that Dave Sutherland drew the maps based on originals by EGG, or at least under EGG's direct guidance. Hommlet is stated as growing up around a crossroads. A trade road east that Nulb isn't located directly on makes sense since Nulb is supposed to be "out of the way." An east road had to predate the rise of the Temple, and the overgrown track was probably only created when the Temple/moathouse forces came to subjugate Hommlet and the lands nearby, and then fell into disuse and became overgrown when they were defeated.
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 18, 2018 10:00:04 GMT -5
From the DMG (1979) page 228:
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 18, 2018 17:52:47 GMT -5
From the DMG (1979) page 228: Well shoot, there goes my theories! It was interesting to learn about the historical context of distance measurements anyways. Maybe I'll just alter Nulb to make it an intermittent string of hovels all along the pirate held tributary to the Velverdyva River, with primary inhabitants of the huts/shantys/open sheds ranging from dirty townies living with their animals, cauldron stoking witches, Cajun style voodoo practitioners, hillbilly crude alchemists, and perhaps some Rhennee/Attloi Flannae Mystics?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 23, 2018 15:32:34 GMT -5
Ok, if I am keeping both the east road out of Hommlet and also the overgrown track shown on the VOH map:
Note the VOH map states before the overgrown track forks its junction on the east road "to Nyr Dyv & the temple"
So, it is possible as follows:
1) the main road east out of Hommlet is the most direct route to the Nyr Dyv coast, which I would say after long travel deposits travelers and merchants heading east out of Hommlet directly into the walled city of Dyvers - this main road does not pass through Nulb or the temple area
2) the overgrown track heads roughly NE two miles into the hills above Hommlet, then turns more northerly, with the track dropping into boggy marshlands. There, off to the left (roughly west direction) can be seen the silhouette of the moathouse. I'm taking that the moathouse is at most two miles from Hommlet as the crow flies, more likely about 1-1/2 miles as the crow flies - then, the location of Nulb can be set approximately 4-1/2 miles further ENE of the moathouse, on the east side of the Imerdys Run, with no available west bridge/ford crossing.
3) the track continues past the moathouse seven leagues, until the temple area is reached. It sounds from the VOH module description that the moathouse is roughly due west of the temple, "the subjugated folk were then to be used as slaves to construct yet another fortress further west, as the evil power of the Temple spread in ever-growing rings to encompass all of the land round its base." Though the overgrown track continues (meanders?) seven leagues past the moathouse to the temple area, as the crow flies, there may be only about ten miles distance from the moathouse to the temple area.
4) it does not state in the VOH module text that the track connecting the moathouse to the temple area passes through Nulb. Neither does it state in the text precisely how close Nulb is to the temple area. The reference to Nulb being but six miles distant from Hommlet makes it likely a distance measurement "as the crow flies" with neither the overgrown track or the main road east out of Hommlet connecting directly to Nulb - this fits with its "out-of-the-way position."
Therefore, the temple is located ESE from Nulb, with roughly eight miles of distance separating Nulb from the Temple area? Adventurers with a base in Nulb can get to the temple in about 1/3 of the time and distance compared to using a base in Hommlet?
There is probably a roughly north/south seldom-used track located on the east bank of the Imerdys Run that connects Nulb and the low road to its north?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 23, 2018 15:37:12 GMT -5
Note that I take the low road to follow the south bank of the Velverdyva River, connecting Verbobonc to Sobanwych and then Dyvers. The quickest route from Hommlet to the low road is by traveling northwest to Verbobonc first.
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