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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 6, 2015 9:32:40 GMT -5
This reminds me of this thread at Dragonsfoot. There I wrote: In that thread, Paul Stormberg said that he saw EGG's map in 2006, and he said and earlier in that thread he wrote:
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 6, 2015 10:05:26 GMT -5
I've noticed that there is no grievances about the coordinates in these posts. I have it scribbled on my old 1983 map that is worn as hell with the exact image from T1-4 transcribed onto it. However, having played T1 Hommlet prior to that I had a note with an official coordinate (N4-95) north of the the T1-4 location and I vaguely remember an "issue" with the maps in the early 1980's that had nothing to do with what you guys are talking about above. I recall later after this period checking the 1983 WOG boxed set coordinates and of course, they didn't match up to T1-4 and it was forgotten. Guess what? The WOG 1983 boxed set coordinates are O4-98 not N4-95 which is even more crazy. Now Geez, look how far down the WOG 198 coordinates are. Here is O4-98 on the 1980 folio map: How fucked is that? KABOOM!!! So I searched through everything and found the source of where I got that mysterious noted official location of N4-95 last night. It was in the POLYHEDRON magazine listing of module coordinates from POLYHEDRON #10 (FEB 1983). So in the above image the coordinates look like this: Now you can kill yourselves!
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 6, 2015 10:28:53 GMT -5
I think Verbobonc might also have been EGG's tip of the hat to that John Bobek guy, who was editor for the International Federation of Wargamers newsletter, which he does to everyone everywhere in naming conventions. I made the association after I had bought him a cup of coffee and came back to watch him play in the siege of the moathouse.
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Post by Scott on Apr 6, 2015 12:53:10 GMT -5
I re-read that thread after I posted. I haven't really pondered the mysteries of Elemental Evil recently, but once the gears start turning, it's hard to stop.
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Post by Scott on Apr 6, 2015 13:16:21 GMT -5
I did a a Hommlet to Nulb wilderness hex map years ago with 1 miles hexes. I'm not sure I still have it. It was based on the Darlene map clip included, and disregarded any distance references from the text.
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Post by Scott on Apr 6, 2015 17:28:34 GMT -5
My work network blocks the picture attachments, so I'm always read Gene's posts hours before seeing the pictures. I think I like the T1-4 module placement best.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 6, 2015 19:56:42 GMT -5
I dug up the Greyhawk map that I had hanging up for about 30 years. The frame recently broke and got water damaged in hurricane Sandy (2012?). You can just make out the high road and low road with Hommlet. The "K" in Furyondy is for the location of the Keep on the Borderlands and the canal going through the Bright Desert was a dead city revived by evil player characters. The 1983 version has better quality than the 1980 by a long shot. The 1983 almost feels like its printed on money and the 1980 feels like a magazine quality feel.
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Post by Scott on Apr 7, 2015 12:18:36 GMT -5
I really do not like the maps/roads as presented. I don't like the idea that Nulb would be situated on the main rode from Hommlet to Sobanwych/Dyvers. It doesn't seem very out of the way, and it doesn't seem like a brigand/pirate nest would be tolerated on a trade route. I found some of my old wilderness maps. The setup I had was the overgrown track that leads from Hommlet to the Moathouse continues to Nulb; it's the track coming in from the northwest on the Nulb map. The main road east out of Hommlet takes you to the ford six leagues upstream from Nulb. The "TO SOBANWYCH" road out of Nulb eventually reaches this road some distance to the east.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 7, 2015 16:18:38 GMT -5
The Polyhedron location does seem to be more "plain T1" friendly but then you lose all the detail from the "T1-4" map. Although the "Lowroad" of "plain T1" does run along the south bank of the Velverdyva while the "Low Road" of "T1-4" just seems to be a random title grab for a winding path in the woods totally losing the concept of the mighty river road. In ARTIFACT OF EVIL (1986) ,the "highroad" is a road running along the Velverdyva/Nyr Dyv which might even be one of two continental highways. The "Highroad" being sort of the path of the "Oeridians" and the "Lowroad" being the path of the "Suloise". Or as I call them the "High-road-ians" and the "Route-low-ise". You can really kill yourselves now.
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Post by Scott on Apr 8, 2015 7:35:17 GMT -5
Gene, I can't recall you ever sharing any T1-4 stories. Have you ever tun the adventure? If so, how'd it go?
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 8, 2015 8:42:38 GMT -5
The first time playing in Hommlet was in 1983 with this some kids from high school in Connecticut. I had the adventure from a "triple pack" but I gave him my word that I had not went through it yet and thats what provoked the "need" to play it. At that time I was mostly freeform playing and was off modules. However, he wasn't trusting and believed that I had read through it. So that was a back and forth with the moathouse and he added a humiliation sequence where my character got attacked by his PC out of nowhere so altogether it wasn't a good run. After, I had tried to assemble the Greyhawk campaign into the campaign and wrote some notes on modules locales around the time T1-4 came out. Then in 1988 my friend Tim DMed TOEE with me and handful of friends (including Dorothy! Thats surreal because she doesn't do D&D). I remember the ability to reassemble all the players over and over was a big problem. In the 1990's I started to reassess the region putting Gary Gygax's game counterpart as an archmage in charge of that region and had many stompings through Hommlet either on the way to Greyhawk but otherwise the temple and moathouse weren't really reapproached. In contrast, the Caves of Chaos of B2 were always gone back to from familiarity. In 2000, with the advent of 3E's return to Greyhawk with Gary Gygax (which we all know didn't happen) I had reassembled the Greyhawk notes and mushed them together with offical 3E Greyhawk (Living Greyhawk). And ran a campaign in Veluna. Here is some of the maps from that area. The newer looking ones are from the latter campaign: That is the Hommlet that I got out of one of those "triple packs" at Kay-Bee toy store and the TOEE was fresh off the shelf from a Waldenbooks in 1986. The T1 copy that the kid from high school used in 1983 had the interior image (that I pulled out above) on the cover.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 8, 2015 14:30:29 GMT -5
The nearby city on that map was originally a stronghold of a gnome illusionist character of mine. It was about a 1/2 mile down so its not like its right there.
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Post by Scott on Apr 8, 2015 14:35:44 GMT -5
I did I little with the Gnomes in Greenway Valley. I had the party go there to see the small elven cloak they found in Lubash's bed pile
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 8, 2015 18:31:27 GMT -5
I forgot the "Ye Olde Greyhawk Binder" had some maps as well where I copied my own T1-4 map:
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 8, 2015 20:26:06 GMT -5
I like the hand drawn maps with the colored pencils and markers. It looks like you were making notes on further detailing of Veluna and the Kron Hills as well. Did you come up with names or details of the (other) seven noble houses of Veluna, or about the gnomes of the Kron Hills/Greenway Valley?
Of the Hommlet locations, I like best the one you cite from POLYHEDRON: N4-95. I like it because it is closer to Verbobonc, and also puts the pirates of Nulb on Imeryd's Run closer to the Velverdyva River. Having the entire scale be smaller seems more in line with what was presented in T1. But from other maps I've seen, official and homemade alike, it seems like the T1-4 location (N4-96?) is the most widely accepted.
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Post by Scott on Apr 9, 2015 8:39:22 GMT -5
There is other text in T1-4 that hints at a much different map early in development. I think in the history of the Temple it states that the Temple was located on the shores of the Nyr Dyv.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 9, 2015 9:26:27 GMT -5
Are you think of this quote? From T1-4, p. 27: "For many years, a cult of Chaotic Evil flourished somewhere on the shores of the Nyr Dyv. Although the location of their Temple is lost, these facts regarding it and its followers are known."
I guess you're right. Upon re-reading that passage now, it does seem to imply a different location for the ToEE, somewhere on the shores of the Nyr Dyv! I never caught that before. I always associated this passage with an earlier one:
T1-4, p. 4-5: "Whether the evil came west from Dyvers (as is claimed by one faction) or crept out of the forestlands bordering the Wild Coast (as others assert), come it did."
Perhaps this passage was just a nod to an earlier conception of having the ToEE originally based on the shores of the Nyr Dyv.
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Post by Scott on Apr 9, 2015 10:06:09 GMT -5
I always attributed it to the jumble of notes Mentzer was given to work with. It was probably what Gary had in mind when he wrote it, and it was included on a draft in the pile of notes given to Frank.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 9, 2015 13:46:25 GMT -5
From the text of ARTIFACT OF EVIL about a third of the way into the novel there is so much back and forth about traveling and leaving Hommlet (and no demarcation as to where in the novel map just Verbobonc, Enstad and Warwell) that it makes it seem that it is exactly below Verbobonc even though it could be taken as the T1-4 location it does lean towards straight up from Enstad (by pointing it out on hippogriff-back) and straight down from Verbobonc (by mentioning the routes of Obmi and company fleeing it).
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Post by Scott on Apr 10, 2015 7:15:46 GMT -5
The only Gord book I still have a copy of is Saga of Old City. I must have the rest stashed away in a box somewhere; I can't imagine getting rid of them, but I have no idea where they are.
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