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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 27, 2018 9:15:52 GMT -5
How have you all used Greyhawk astrology in your campaigns - I am interested to understand it better and make use of it in the current campaign?
From the WOG folio commentary, it sounds like there are five other "known" planets in addition to Oerth within the solar system, and Oerth has two moons.
Are the five other known planets analogous to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn?
Why are Oerth's moons known as the handmaiden and the mistress? Why is it that this differs from the one moon Earth has?
How does Zodiac astrology work within this system? How is it similar or different to The Zodiac system from Earth's ancient/dark ages/medieval times?
What is behind the two names and works cited in the folio to look to for further astrological information?
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 27, 2018 10:49:45 GMT -5
I've always had similar questions, but those were merely crumbs EGG threw our way without ever developing anything comprehensive. Luna is the larger silver moon that rises first, and Celene is the smaller blue moon that rises second and follows Luna across the sky (and is thus 'the handmaiden'). Why are there two moons? Because it's cool to be on a fantasy world with two moons. Barsoom/Mars had two moons, so why not Oerth? In the Gord books there are a few other references, such as one of the planets being named Rao, and the names of one or more constellations were given (griffon? maybe others, too). If I had to guess, I would say EGG was just taking elements of medieval astrology and the Ptolemaic system and throwing them out there for flavor.
For the books named -- Selvor the Elder's “Secrets of Ye Skye Revealed” or Yestro Bilnigd's “Astrology, Divinity, and Mankind" -- they could be valuable books found by adventurers, perhaps even with spells in them. The authors could have been astrologers, sages, clerics of Celestian, etc. I've always imagined them as legendary or historic figures, similar to how Ptolemy, author of the Tetrabiblos and the Almagest, was viewed by medieval astrologers.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 27, 2018 11:21:58 GMT -5
This is one of those things where if the Williams material on Greyhawk didn't create such a mentality of bland continuance of GH as a blind "property" then it wouldn't have created all these half-alive, zombified canon creatures. I recall bringing it Mars twice and being runaround with Barsoom-like tales of GH players trips to Mars. I asked if it was Hextor and it was a definite no. There are 10 planets in the GH star system and "Jupiter" is Rao.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 27, 2018 11:23:10 GMT -5
Sorry, about the incoherence just really busy.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 27, 2018 11:44:17 GMT -5
Sorry, Gary was steamed about some shit that I had mentioned a shitty second edition GH project the first time I had asked about planets.
The novels mentions an Eldest Griffon constellation in CHAPTER 16 of GREYHAWK ADVENTURES: ARTIFACT OF EVIL (1986):
There is also mention of jewels representing planets in CHAPTER 32 of GREYHAWK ADVENTURES: SAGA OF OLD CITY (1985):
On the griffon Gary mentioned that was intended as a zodiac of monsters.
On the planets nothing more except he intended one beyond "Pluto" making 10 altogether.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 27, 2018 12:27:14 GMT -5
Given all this, it seems pretty reasonable to guess all the planets are named for Greater Gods:
Sun = Pelor Mercury = Zilchus Venus = Boccob Earth = Beory Mars = Ulaa Jupiter = Rao Saturn = Cyndor Neptune = Procan Uranus = Incabulos Pluto = Nerull "Planet X" = Tharizdun
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 27, 2018 13:48:29 GMT -5
Why not? I'm not sure anything mythological can directly apply. Rao is no "Thor" equivalent so it isn't as universal as the days of the week to the planets.
Some of their worship is underground in darkness which throws another wrench in there.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 27, 2018 14:25:57 GMT -5
Note also that the way the calendar is described in the folio/box doesn't make sense: it says the 12 months are based on the 28-day cycle of Luna, but then four week-long festivals based on the cycle of Celene are placed in-between the months, making the solar year 364 days long. There are three possible interpretations of this:
1) There are 13 lunar cycles per solar year and the "savant-sage" is wrong about the 12 months being based on the phases of the moon (i.e. Luna isn't in the same phase on the same day of each month). This seems to be the "official" interpretation but is also the one I like least (since, among other things, it requires a calendar to track the phases of Luna instead of just knowing that it's always full on the 1st day of the month, half waning (rise at midnight) on the 8th, new on the 15th, and half waxing (set at midnight) on the 22nd).
2) Luna's cycle "pauses" and remains full for the entire week of each festival before resuming its normal monthly cycle. This is the interpretation that best matches the literal text, but seems to be astronomically impossible, and while I know we can just wave our hands and say "magic" that's not really satisfying to me either.
3) The festivals of Celene overlap the Luna-based months (i.e. Richfest is not a week between the months of Wealsun and Reaping, but rather is a weeklong festival on the last 3 days of Wealsun and the first 4 days of Reaping - or perhaps just on the first 7 days of Reaping). This is the interpretation I like best, but it's inconsistent with the statement in the text that the year is 364 days long. Nevertheless, I think for my own purposes I'm going to go with it and just retcon the Oerth year to be 336 days long. Considering that the "canonical" length of the year already changed from 360 to 364 days between the folio and the box (when the festivals were changed from 6 to 7 days, presumably in order to fill a full week and make the calendar regular in that way) that doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 27, 2018 14:28:42 GMT -5
I've always had similar questions, but those were merely crumbs EGG threw our way without ever developing anything comprehensive. Luna is the larger silver moon that rises first, and Celene is the smaller blue moon that rises second and follows Luna across the sky (and is thus 'the handmaiden'). Why are there two moons? Because it's cool to be on a fantasy world with two moons. Barsoom/Mars had two moons, so why not Oerth? In the Gord books there are a few other references, such as one of the planets being named Rao, and the names of one or more constellations were given (griffon? maybe others, too). If I had to guess, I would say EGG was just taking elements of medieval astrology and the Ptolemaic system and throwing them out there for flavor. For the books named -- Selvor the Elder's “Secrets of Ye Skye Revealed” or Yestro Bilnigd's “Astrology, Divinity, and Mankind" -- they could be valuable books found by adventurers, perhaps even with spells in them. The authors could have been astrologers, sages, clerics of Celestian, etc. I've always imagined them as legendary or historic figures, similar to how Ptolemy, author of the Tetrabiblos and the Almagest, was viewed by medieval astrologers. The names seem like scrambled words: Selvor the Elder's = lovers' elders Yestro Bilnigd's = destroy sibling Lovers' elders destroy sibling?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 27, 2018 14:48:51 GMT -5
I've always had similar questions, but those were merely crumbs EGG threw our way without ever developing anything comprehensive. Luna is the larger silver moon that rises first, and Celene is the smaller blue moon that rises second and follows Luna across the sky (and is thus 'the handmaiden'). Why are there two moons? Because it's cool to be on a fantasy world with two moons. Barsoom/Mars had two moons, so why not Oerth? In the Gord books there are a few other references, such as one of the planets being named Rao, and the names of one or more constellations were given (griffon? maybe others, too). If I had to guess, I would say EGG was just taking elements of medieval astrology and the Ptolemaic system and throwing them out there for flavor. For the books named -- Selvor the Elder's “Secrets of Ye Skye Revealed” or Yestro Bilnigd's “Astrology, Divinity, and Mankind" -- they could be valuable books found by adventurers, perhaps even with spells in them. The authors could have been astrologers, sages, clerics of Celestian, etc. I've always imagined them as legendary or historic figures, similar to how Ptolemy, author of the Tetrabiblos and the Almagest, was viewed by medieval astrologers. The names seem like scrambled words: Selvor the Elder's = lovers' elders Yestro Bilnigd's = destroy sibling Lovers' elders destroy sibling? Is this a possible allusion to Hephaistos (god of metallurgy) being cast down from Mount Olympus because of his ugliness or lameness? Hephaistos who held a grudge against his mother (Hera) and imprisoned her in a special throne (=TOEE?)?
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 27, 2018 15:32:47 GMT -5
Knowing that Oerth’s solar system has 10 planets generally corresponding to our nine plus one, that Oerth’s sky has a constellation called the elder griffon whose wing points north (correlating to our Ursa Minor/Little Dipper pointing to the North Star), and that there are twelve houses in Oerth’s Zodiac, it seems a pretty fair guess that Oerth’s constellations are the same as ours, only with different names. That conveniently allows astrology-based symbolism to still be used without having to create (and expect the players d to learn) a whole new system, which seems like a good idea. Now we just need to come up with the Oerth names of the twelve houses of the zodiac, presumably most/all based on monster types. While we’re at it, we could probably rename the non-zodiac constellations as well; at least those visible in the northern hemisphere.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 27, 2018 17:01:08 GMT -5
The griffon is already up there so would that negate an owlbear? Why is there a griffon? I could imagine a displacer and blink dog. How would dragons be handled? I got that the king and queen were springboarded off the Bible and were adaptations of crude medieval legendary views of leviathan and behemoth. Does that seem like a Gary thing to have in the sky? The tiamat constellaion made of 5 dragons together? The bahamut could have the 7 golden "canary" stars maybe throw in the 13 silver "nightingale" stars for good measure.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 27, 2018 17:19:13 GMT -5
I'd assume most/all of these Upper Planes-dwelling creatures would also be represented as constellations: Baku, Couatl, Hollyphant, Ki-rin, Lammasu, Opinicus, Phoenix, Shedu, Titan
Classical astronomy included 48 constellations, so there's no shortage of possibilities
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 27, 2018 17:29:09 GMT -5
FWIW, here's how I'd line the Greyhawk months up with astrological signs (including the gemstone and element associated with each sign)
Fireseek - Aquarius – Amethyst - Air Readying - Pisces – Aquamarine - Water Coldeven – Aries – Diamond - Fire Planting – Taurus – Emerald - Earth Flocktime - Gemini – Pearl - Air Wealsun - Cancer – Ruby - Water Reaping – Leo – Peridot - Fire Goodmonth - Virgo – Sapphire - Earth Harvester - Libra – Opal - Air Patchwall - Scorpio – Topaz - Water Ready’reat - Sagittarius – Turquoise - Fire Sunsebb - Capricorn – Garnet - Earth
If we can come up with alternate names for these twelve, we'll have made a good start. The adventure The Abduction of Good King Despot (one of Gary's favorites) is based on an astrological theme, and uses the following monsters for each sign, which might provide some ideas:
Aries - berserker Taurus - gorgon Gemini - two frost giants Cancer - giant crab Leo - griffon Virgo - druid Libra - dinosaur Scorpio - giant scorpion Sagittarius - centaur Capricorn - Orcus Aquarius - [none] Pisces - giant shark
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Post by Scott on Mar 28, 2018 7:56:25 GMT -5
I’ve wanted to DM a cleric of Celestian where this might be relevant info, and maybe even try some planet hopping, but so far no interest.
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 28, 2018 8:34:20 GMT -5
Eric's first character ever was 'Eric the cleric,' a cleric of Celestian. I don't believe they were playing in the World of Greyhawk, but simply that Eric picked Celestian out of the DRAGON Magazine article. He started out as first level, but then got raised to something like 18th level because the kids he was gaming with at the time wanted to do some high level play. Brian Rzeszotarski DMed some of those games. Eric later placed Eric the Cleric into his own campaign world (Alaria) as an NPC who occasionally sent others on adventures. His stronghold was named Castle Blackfire and the gate was barred on the inside with a giant's sword he got from one of his adventures. I had a magic-user who went on a little coastal mapping expedition with some other characters for Eric the Cleric, in which we ended up fighting some orcs and rescuing a few dwarves. There was a lot of dimension-hopping between campaign worlds in those days, so Celestian was an apt choice.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 8:36:11 GMT -5
I looked at this yesterday evening but I became wrapped up in crap.
The list from THE ABDUCTION OF GOOD KING DESPOT (1988) reminds me of the line up from the 80's computer game ARCHON that reminds me what about DRAGONCHESS (DRAGON MAGAZINE #100 August, 1985)?
Here is the lineup from the 1983 game ARCHON:
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 28, 2018 8:41:25 GMT -5
The names seem like scrambled words: Selvor the Elder's = lovers' elders Yestro Bilnigd's = destroy sibling Lovers' elders destroy sibling? Is this a possible allusion to Hephaistos (god of metallurgy) being cast down from Mount Olympus because of his ugliness or lameness? Hephaistos who held a grudge against his mother (Hera) and imprisoned her in a special throne (=TOEE?)? I doubt it, because by this point EGG seemed interested moreso in developing his own gods. But you could be on to something about the scrambled words. I'm just not sure we should read too much into it. He may have been thinking of certain naming conventions, though, since Selvor is similar to Belvor, king of Furyondy, so that may have been intended as another Velondian-style name from that region. Bilnigd makes me think of Blidg Fanger the pirate. How are we supposed to pronounce Bilnigd and Blidg?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 8:50:49 GMT -5
I immediately looked over Celestian and he seems so "lesser" and "saintly" rather than subject for a planet. Although the gems for each of the 7 orders of Celestian seem to be saying some message. Is that the planets?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 28, 2018 9:05:12 GMT -5
I think the references are to historical astrologers as you can easily throw an "arab" astrologer with the "abu", "al", "ben", "bin", and "ibn" right next to "Bilnigd" without blinking an eye. As for Selvor, it sounds like an allusion to a straightforward Greek name.
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