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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 18:53:04 GMT -5
In any case, it sure seems like precursors to coming of age stories are definitely in the background of VOH and TOEE:
Parzival
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
While To Kill a Mockingbird is a modern coming of age story, its purpose may be more to point towards precursors of this genre, and it seems fitting that EGG would weave this background to create adventures for both his coming of age children and AD&D audience to enjoy?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 1, 2018 21:34:34 GMT -5
Perhaps the Holcomb, Kansas Clutter family quadruple murder that Harper Lee and Truman Capote traveled to the aftermath together, as per "In Cold Blood" book and movie? The cover of the book shows a hatpin with what appeared originally as a red drop of blood = found under skull at the moathouse crayfish pool? Perpetrated by "Dick" and "Smith." That's why Mytch the miller is cool toward strangers, suspicious with good cause? And other mass killings ala Walker family murders and/or Manson's Helter Skelter could be coming into view as adventures proceed VOH and TOEE? Did EGG meet or correspond with Truman Capote while he was in California? Is it possibility a tribute or else a disparagement of Truman Capote that there are signs pointing to a dead man tied to Truman Capote in the moathouse?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 2, 2018 10:36:22 GMT -5
Sure, the French influence is possible, especially when considering the concept of an 'evil' looking cathedral with gargoyles, and of course the catacombs below Paris are inspirational as well. But, I found another connection... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementals_(DC_Comics)They first appeared on the Super Friends in 1978. T1 The Village of Hommlet was published in 1979. Coincidence? Gary, I looked into your connection above some more: Note that with the elementals connections you found, this brings with them Paracelsus into view: 1) born in Egg (this is in modern Switzerland); rustic origins/hermitage 2) student of Johannes Trithemius, who also taught Cornelius Agrippa 3) also educated by father and local clerics 4) Father of Toxicology, "the dose makes the poison" 5) Systematically studied minerals and curative powers of alpine mineral springs 6) Swiss physician, alchemist, astrologer 7) "let no man belong to another, who can belong to himself" 8) creation of laudanum, an opium tincture? 9) to water, air, fire, earth elements, added mercury, sulphur, salt His "elder" who mentored him, Johannes Trithemius: 1) German Benedictine abbot 2) polymath, occultist, cryptographer, lexicographer, chronicler 3) disreputation as magician led to his resignation to become abbot in a different locale until his death A Paracelsus type EGG proxy should be in TOEE? A seeming DMG sample dungeon connection also? A EEG shrine within it? Rosicrucian portrait of Paracelsus, with its shield coat of arms, may have been what EGG intended DAT to use on the VOH module artwork? So Lareth/Lolth are either allied or masquerading to Paracelsus type faction in TOEE?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 2, 2018 11:39:41 GMT -5
I think the foundations of CHAINMAIL include all of this as well with the introduction of elementals into play.
Gary was steeped in medievalisms when he summoned all that simplification.
As an aside, my biggest thing with TOEE was not minutiae about the village. It was about the cult so I was very centered into that angle because of the dimwittedness of the second edition era where I had heard demon free simplification after simplification from people talking D&D regarding TOEE.
So every time I had brought up TOEE to "the man", I was like fuck Hommlet lets hear more about how the cult works. So it was like a rodeo trying to get direct info from him.
I still believe that was presented was a "IT IS WHAT IT IS" kind of thing.
That is, the final product was a bent space that did not have final creative approval.
I believe the real version would have introduced us to a game version of all this multi-layered nonsense featured in the novels. Otherwise why feature this in everything? SB had two (3?) sides. HS has 3 sides. Co8 has an unknown amount of branches and executive sides. That shit didn't just come out nowhere. And the way the principals walk away from TOEE in the novels is that its an open market for demons.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 2, 2018 12:46:28 GMT -5
I think the foundations of CHAINMAIL include all of this as well with the introduction of elementals into play. Gary was steeped in medievalisms when he summoned all that simplification. As an aside, my biggest thing with TOEE was not minutiae about the village. It was about the cult so I was very centered into that angle because of the dimwittedness of the second edition era where I had heard demon free simplification after simplification from people talking D&D regarding TOEE. So every time I had brought up TOEE to "the man", I was like fuck Hommlet lets hear more about how the cult works. So it was like a rodeo trying to get direct info from him. I still believe that was presented was a "IT IS WHAT IT IS" kind of thing. That is, the final product was a bent space that did not have final creative approval. I believe the real version would have introduced us to a game version of all this multi-layered nonsense featured in the novels. Otherwise why feature this in everything? SB had two (3?) sides. HS has 3 sides. Co8 has an unknown amount of branches and executive sides. That shit didn't just come out nowhere. And the way the principals walk away from TOEE in the novels is that its an open market for demons. Yes, an open market for demons rings true to the lost real TOEE version, as we have Paracelsus and even more importantly his occultist/magician elder mentor in view, Johannes Trithemius. Now, occultist and magician per what I had read an EGG quote on another site some time ago, looked like EGG was drawing a dividing line - because he intended for a demon-urge sorcerer class to develop that would be separated from the magic-user class. So the demon-urge sorcerer class that EGG would have had to be developed in mind used non-magical means = alchemy and the like? And there is also to be contemplated the other personage Trithemius mentored, Cornelius Agrippa? What of him in TOEE? I follow what you are saying about screw Hommlet, but do you think it's possible that either VOH was played in EGG's original campaign with some personages secretly corrupted by the cult, or else, by studying Hommlet we can get some accurate appositive reflections to get a better picture of the cult? Module layout and descriptive detail of the four major Hommlet buildings makes me wonder about possible cult corruption of personages within those structures' walls?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 2, 2018 13:06:52 GMT -5
I feel like some bizzare crap should start happening near and/or within Hommlet, first on a small ominous hints type scale, then increasing into weirder pervasive evil chaos from area cult activity as adventurers make progress?
There seem to be VOH text hints to this, like DM make Hommlet updates as buildings are destroyed, new denizens arrive, general battles happen?
And what of notes like Brother Smyth will assume the role of religious advisor to the faithful in the absence of the druidical head? Have you in past campaigns seen Jaroo Ashstaff vanish or get slain?
Perhaps Lareth takes Rufus into captivity and manipulates turns him to evil?
Lycanthropy strikes as affected St. Cuthberite personages prey on Old Faith personages?
Any other ideas besides thievery/assassinations instigated by the traders?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 2, 2018 17:59:30 GMT -5
I think the Lolth level was ignored in a "you're still working here Frank finish it or your fired." and what was presented as "by Gary" is literally almost as close as Gary signing 2nd Edition and Forgotten Realms material at conventions because its technically D&D with a logo on it and "sign this you're a celebrity" kind of thing.
I hate to bash some of these post-Gygax D&D/Greyhawk contributors because I've done it enough for a long time. "Hi, I'm Roger E. Moore, you might remem-....GGAAAAHHHH!!!!" Gene gouges his eyes out.... Seriously, I hate to bash those guys but they left the entire Greyhawk universe when they presented Circle of Eight as what was perceived from one module (WG6 ISLE OF THE APE 1985) instead of all sources (prior module WG5 had actual non-magic-user members. A big fucking clue.). TOEE was almost totally ignored as an after thought. The Sargent universe as presented was right in that cheesy gulch that UK writers fall in who have an obsession with classic characters then getting talky over it instead of using it as a guide to develop more.(Example WATCHMEN, SWAMP THING, Marvel's ULTIMATES, etc.,etc. ad nauseum) and he wouldn't touch TOEE with a ten foot pole. Even a supplement completely about Iuz mentions it once. The Roger E. Moore shit doesn't touch it either. He says briefly that its directly the Elder Elemental God to make things even worse. So we're in post-modern, post-modern, post-modern and its even fiercer. "The Thing from Another World" has infected everything Greyhawk and if it moves flamethrower it then ask questions later.
Thats the universe that I live in with Greyhawk.
That said, I'm in that burned out clearing for the project that I'm working on. I can't and won't contaminate but I need consistency.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 8, 2018 12:35:08 GMT -5
In bold print on the original VOH module cover, and repeated on the first page of the module leaflet: "Dungeon Module T1"
It does say in bold, "The Village of Hommlet" directly below this on the next line. It's a curious juxtaposition - perhaps worth looking at more closely?
How are the contents of this publication, primarily a detailed village of Hommlet, referred to solely as a dungeon module?
Maybe we should break this apart to look at "Dungeon Module T1" by itself:
Dungeon Module T(ee)1(one) = "monologue: teen-endued" {EGG speaking alone: endued (indued/endowed) invested (clothed) and provided (gifted, as per a dowry) with qualities and traits pertaining to teens}?
So the "T" module marker is not necessarily standing solely for "temple?" It is standing also for "teen?"
Which is why this adventure module is chock full of "coming of age tales" background contents?"
So when EGG ran this pre-published adventure play test with his children and some others (mostly pre-teen and teen audience), and afterwards when he published to a primarily pre-teen and teen audience, he purposefully designed this adventure with some teen coming of age contents that would be recognized, it's woven in throughout: for example, hidden treasure in the hollow of a tree = To Kill a Mockingbird.
There are many examples of this throughout, and I'm sure I haven't found them all?
Some to consider within this interwoven text (and in continuation TOEE):
(1) To Kill a Mockingbird (2) Of Mice and Men (3) The Outsiders by S.E. Hinton (authored as teenager)? (4) Sir Gawain & the Green Knight (5) Parzival (6) Comics containing the elementals, overlord/mockingbird/Paracelsus (7) Shane (8) Hamlet (9) In Cold Blood? (10) Due to the possibility of EGG proxy in VOH as local leatherworker, who had 12-year old eldest = Ernie Gygax in 1971, what are possible film/literature/comics connections from 1971? Big Jake starring John Wayne? The Beguiled starring Clint Eastwood (seven women + one elder man)? That Was Then, This Is Now by S.E. Hinton? Wonderland by Joyce Carol Oates? McCabe & Mrs. Miller? MacBeth? A Clockwork Orange? The French Connection? Straw Dogs? For comics, "House of Mystery?", "Superboy?", "Red Wolf?"
Note that Jaroo Ashstaff, agent of Gnarley Forest {"Eastwood" from VOH perspective} Druids?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 8, 2018 14:01:04 GMT -5
This means that T1 is a "cross" work of coming of age tales and comics/literature/film of 1971. Anything that fits in that "cross" would then be "fair game" for a DM to develop within this adventure...?
So what to do with TOEE = T2 + T3 + T4?
I propose this: originally EGG likely intended T2 publication as a next "cross" shifting focus from 1971 to 1972? But then things were changed by EGG following T1 publication, to make the next "cross" instead as 2 + 3 + 4 = 9!
So TOEE uses 1979 as the next "cross?" It also seems likely that the TOEE adds the literary nonsense genre {forerunner to fantasy literature}/nonsense verse crossed on to all this as well - which explains EGG including this kind of content within the temple, and also possibly enabling temple gate connections to EX1 & EX2?
So what's with the elementals then, who appeared in 1978 Super Friends publications?
It's because the elementals are pre-history to TOEE - in TOEE it is that the elementals are a ruse, "Puppets of the Overlord", or in other words, Super Friends Issue #25 October 1979! That helps with TOEE design with Overlord/Mockingbird/Paracelsus = EEG in play!
Fair game then, for DM development of TOEE, is significant film and literature, in addition to the aforementioned and any other comics sources that were published in 1979.
That brings a next step, the Circle of Eight = a next "cross" = 1980???!!!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 8, 2018 14:44:22 GMT -5
By looking into the Super Friends heroes, and thinking about the protectors of VOH, I've started thinking about (B)urne and his associate (R)ufus as like (B)atman and (R)obin...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 8, 2018 15:17:20 GMT -5
I know it all seems so zany on the face of things, which is what should be highly visible experienced by adventurers in VOH and TOEE, yet beneath it all is a controlling, mostly invisible structure that EGG used...
For behind Zagyg, ultimately lies Boccob, creating from a magical/arcane knowledge structure, which Zagyg weaves into a tangled web...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 8, 2018 15:42:59 GMT -5
So, if the circle of eight = 1980, what is the new genre crossed with that year?
It should be a genre associated at minimum with WG5 and WG6, since the circle of eight is in view for these adventures? Would this be movie monsters genre specifically?
What movie monster is Kerzit most similar to or else guards knowledge of? Tier + zek {inmate in Soviet labor camp}, think of ERB's Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar / Tarzan the Tiger movie serial?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 8, 2018 15:50:59 GMT -5
Shadowlands must have been yet another forthcoming "cross" maybe it was intended to be crossed with the science fiction genre? Maybe the Elric Saga would have come into view here?
I don't know what year would have been in view to "cross" this with, are there any numerical hints to determine this within EGG's works?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 14, 2018 8:38:46 GMT -5
Sure, the French influence is possible, especially when considering the concept of an 'evil' looking cathedral with gargoyles, and of course the catacombs below Paris are inspirational as well. But, I found another connection... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementals_(DC_Comics)They first appeared on the Super Friends in 1978. T1 The Village of Hommlet was published in 1979. Coincidence? Gary, I looked into your connection above some more: Note that with the elementals connections you found, this brings with them Paracelsus into view: 1) born in Egg (this is in modern Switzerland); rustic origins/hermitage 2) student of Johannes Trithemius, who also taught Cornelius Agrippa 3) also educated by father and local clerics 4) Father of Toxicology, "the dose makes the poison" 5) Systematically studied minerals and curative powers of alpine mineral springs 6) Swiss physician, alchemist, astrologer 7) "let no man belong to another, who can belong to himself" 8) creation of laudanum, an opium tincture? 9) to water, air, fire, earth elements, added mercury, sulphur, salt His "elder" who mentored him, Johannes Trithemius: 1) German Benedictine abbot 2) polymath, occultist, cryptographer, lexicographer, chronicler 3) disreputation as magician led to his resignation to become abbot in a different locale until his death A Paracelsus type EGG proxy should be in TOEE? A seeming DMG sample dungeon connection also? A EEG shrine within it? Rosicrucian portrait of Paracelsus, with its shield coat of arms, may have been what EGG intended DAT to use on the VOH module artwork? So Lareth/Lolth are either allied or masquerading to Paracelsus type faction in TOEE? Paracelsus being in view for TOEE is supported, because I found EGG brought him up in a 2003 blog, where he discussed the four elements being drawn from Aristotelian physics, then leaped ahead some centuries to Paracelsus and later spiritualist writers...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 14, 2018 8:43:28 GMT -5
So how would the other elemental connections per Paracelsus {Mercury, sulphur, and salt}, come into play via an expanded TOEE lower levels leading possibly to a hidden EEG shrine or temple?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 15, 2018 12:34:35 GMT -5
I'm trying to decide if the VOH tailor at #11 cottage might be an allusion to Nudie Cohn, or else who he claimed association with, gangster Charles Arthur "Pretty Boy" Floyd? "Pretty Boy" Floyd became a suspect in the Kansas City massacre at age 29, but Vernon Miller and accomplices led the gunfight attack? Five months after the Kansas City massacre, Vernon Miller was found dead having been beaten and strangled. Following the death of John Dillinger, "Pretty Boy" Floyd was named public enemy no. 1, and he was pursued by the law and eventually shot and killed, having reportedly said he was done for, having been hit twice by gunfire {2 hit points?}.
"Pretty Boy" Floyd inspired Dick Tracy villain Flattop Jones, Sr.
Any other ideas/suggestions anyone has that fit his VOH description/characterization?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 15, 2018 12:50:51 GMT -5
Maybe Lareth or some other VOH persona resembles John Dillinger?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 15, 2018 13:06:29 GMT -5
John Dillinger, prior to the Lincoln Court shootout, was under surveillance by two agents, Rufus Coulter and Rusty Nails - pointing to VOH's Rufus and also the captain of the militia who has coins hidden beneath rusty nails in a keg in the back shed?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 15, 2018 13:41:21 GMT -5
John Dillinger, prior to the Lincoln Court shootout, was under surveillance by two agents, Rufus Coulter and Rusty Nails - pointing to VOH's Rufus and also the captain of the militia who has coins hidden beneath rusty nails in a keg in the back shed? It's interesting that even as being pursued relentlessly by law enforcement, Dillinger, an avid Chicago Cubs fan attended Wrigley Fields games... Is it possible that Ostler Gundigoot's basement at the inn was/could be used for alchemical type plastic surgery to alter Lareth's appearance, as Dillinger and some of his associates resorted to plastic surgery? Maybe Zert could have his appearance changed to disguise himself after he perpetrated betrayal and left the scene...? Dillinger's grave is located at Crown Hill Cemetery in Indianapolis, IN... Film depictions of Dillinger include 1971 "Appointment with Destiny; The Last Days of John Dillinger," narrated by Rod Serling... The "rogues gallery" of Dillinger gang members could be further developed into the VOH locale to expand: Homer Van Meter, John Hamilton, Charles Makley, "Baby Face Nelson," and Russell Clark...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 15, 2018 14:57:51 GMT -5
So the next allusion to look into is Bonnie {Elizabeth Parker} & Clyde {Chestnut Barrow/Champion Barrow}?
Are we supposed to have in view a soon-to-be 7th level fighter {champion}?
Carnelian scarab, similar color to chestnut, similar color to puce, eventual "puce" knight of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight = commander of the Hommlet Company and leader of the guard tower squad of men-at-arms = Rufus?
Canonness Y'dey as type of Bonnie Elizabeth Parker?
Brother farmers at VOH locales #1 and #5 as allusion to Texas Rangers Frank A. Hamer and Harrison Hamer? Or are these instead allusions to brothers Otis and Elmo? Note that there were a total of four Hamer brothers who were Texas Rangers...
Herdsman {VOH #25} an allusion to Constable William "Cal" Campbell?
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