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Post by Scott on Feb 6, 2018 7:13:57 GMT -5
Having started a couple new campaigns recently, I’m reminded how pathetic 1st level characters are. It’s impossible to have any kind of pace. Playing smart is basically: one encounter, back to town, one encounter, back to town, etc. No wonder Gary used to start his players off at 3rd level in his newer campaigns and DJ and LA characters start out much more capable than D&D characters. It feels like an achievement once you gain a level or two, but getting there can be such a slog.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 9:08:12 GMT -5
It's really important for low level parties to learn to hire men-at-arms and other support hirelings, as well as recruit NPC adventurers. Have you had parties acquire animals like war dogs to take along adventuring? I've had that, but they can bark and attract unwanted attention as well.
It is simply a better game design that 1e has. Low-level adventurers need to also pursue henchmen as quickly as possible. I have DM'ed endless PC deaths and TPKs due to greedy PCs that don't want to pay for these kind of expenses, let alone split spoils shares {and magic items!} with NPCs.
The current campaign PCs have learned so far - they have six PCs (they pressure each other to make it regularly to gaming sessions for party survivability), joined by four NPCs, and have hired two men-at-arms to care for their steeds. They do have a class balance issue however with only one cleric {cleric/ranger} in the party - when the CLW spells have all been used, the party needs to retreat.
The most successful low level adventuring parties in my experience tend to treat 10-12 party size as a minimum expectation - somewhat more than that is even better.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 6, 2018 9:13:20 GMT -5
Its the introductory DM factor too. By 1985, there was no 1st level parties for me. It was "who 's playing'?" and a 7th with a 1st level with an 9th level with a 4th level, etc. there was no "new parties" it wasn't until we got the Lorraine WIlliams factor of hostile takeover creativity that nothing was supplying our status that people started changing things up. There was an all first level party for T1-4 and some had already "played Hommlet" so it was a forced march where players were trying harder to keep it at a certain pace. You could almost say they were co-DMs because they were deliberately acting different for the new players. Many people had sets of characters and would try to match levels sometimes but not everyone. Some just liked to play the same guy. Like the person wh lost his mind when his character got disintegrated by a beholder. But that was with large amounts of people. Once the second edition had set in things changed so much that it wasn't the same game anymore. The random treasure was non-existent. The monsters lost most of the time so I can't say that was comparable. 1st level players run by a "99th level" expert DM is the challenge. How stupid do you get to get back the feel of the first time? 6 beers before the game should do it..
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 6, 2018 9:48:23 GMT -5
Back in the day, in the early 80's when I started playing, there was a lot of hand-waving going on... You can call it cheating, or DM fiat, or whatever, but I don't remember too much legitimate XP advancement to 2nd level. I remember a few 1st level TPK's, but no long slogs of many play sessions to get to 2nd level... Honestly, I think many DMs got bored with it or recognized it as, if not impossible, a situation that just wasn't much fun. And the next thing you know DMs were just starting you out at higher levels. Around 1981-82, one kid asked us what we wanted to play and made up our characters for us. I said I wanted to play an elf fighter/magic-user/thief, and a bit later he handed me one of those classic goldenrod character sheets fully filled out and ready to play at 7th/7th/7th level. Another kid wanted to play a paladin, and got handed a similarly filled out sheet at 9th level. And then we went on an adventure and had a great time!
If you really want to play by the book 'iron man' AD&D starting out with all 1st level characters, nowadays, it is best to set expectations with the players: they need a lot of characters to survive, and they should expect some to die before reaching 2nd level.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 10:08:51 GMT -5
Its the introductory DM factor too. By 1985, there was no 1st level parties for me. It was "who 's playing'?" and a 7th with a 1st level with an 9th level with a 4th level, etc. there was no "new parties" it wasn't until we got the Lorraine WIlliams factor of hostile takeover creativity that nothing was supplying our status that people started changing things up. There was an all first level party for T1-4 and some had already "played Hommlet" so it was a forced march where players were trying harder to keep it at a certain pace. You could almost say they were co-DMs because they were deliberately acting different for the new players. Many people had sets of characters and would try to match levels sometimes but not everyone. Some just liked to play the same guy. Like the person wh lost his mind when his character got disintegrated by a beholder. But that was with large amounts of people. Once the second edition had set in things changed so much that it wasn't the same game anymore. The random treasure was non-existent. The monsters lost most of the time so I can't say that was comparable. 1st level players run by a "99th level" expert DM is the challenge. How stupid do you get to get back the feel of the first time? 6 beers before the game should do it.. By 1985, I was hardly DM'ing any more sessions {and also, I believe the most advanced PC survivor of my campaigns at that time was 7th level} - it had been constant from Holmes basic through 1984, but it's really been that long for me until just starting a fresh campaign a few months ago! I've figured out that I'm far from a "99th" level" expert DM! It is getting the DM rust off that's my challenge, and learning from you all things that you're comfortably attuned with like UA, which is like brand new material for me to learn how to handle?! At this point I can enjoy one beer while DM'ing - I don't want to get too slowed down losing my attention for running the game! It is a lot of fun to be running a campaign again, with the DMG sample dungeon lead-in to VOH now. The players are hooked and loving Greyhawk, which they all have never experienced. It was the fourth gaming session in that I had one of the players exclaim, "Greyhawk is awesome!" Yes it is...and it's quite a fun ride again...I'm trying to keep up and deliver session to session its greatness!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 6, 2018 10:47:28 GMT -5
Back in the day, in the early 80's when I started playing, there was a lot of hand-waving going on... You can call it cheating, or DM fiat, or whatever, but I don't remember too much legitimate XP advancement to 2nd level. I remember a few 1st level TPK's, but no long slogs of many play sessions to get to 2nd level... Honestly, I think many DMs got bored with it or recognized it as, if not impossible, a situation that just wasn't much fun. And the next thing you know DMs were just starting you out at higher levels. Around 1981-82, one kid asked us what we wanted to play and made up our characters for us. I said I wanted to play an elf fighter/magic-user/thief, and a bit later he handed me one of those classic goldenrod character sheets fully filled out and ready to play at 7th/7th/7th level. Another kid wanted to play a paladin, and got handed a similarly filled out sheet at 9th level. And then we went on an adventure and had a great time! If you really want to play by the book 'iron man' AD&D starting out with all 1st level characters, nowadays, it is best to set expectations with the players: they need a lot of characters to survive, and they should expect some to die before reaching 2nd level. I concur with your comment above about setting expectations for all first level parties. In my opinion, an all first level party needs to have 8 to 10 total fighters/clerics/MAAs at a minimum to be successful. Of course some magic-users, thieves, etc. are needed to round out the party but these other classes are all additive to the required base. A mixture of races amongst the adventuring party is another must have.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 6, 2018 11:00:25 GMT -5
Honestly? I was just joking about drinking. I've had some drunken games where I got fucked up and did all kinds of crazy shit but I don't know if I'm at that level anymore. I could do it but the question is with who? And why? So it could be on the internet the next day? I'M DOING IT! (Runs out to get a case of beers) Seriously, I think I'm going to have to do a 1st level game here soon. I never liked to do the game log write ups so I don't know if I can get into it but I'll try.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 6, 2018 11:08:46 GMT -5
There is great advice in B2 and the PH for players and DMs. I just reread that PH section in the Appendix, last night... Good advice about setting goals, being prepared, and above all cooperating with others. Many times I've seen player characters bumble along aimlessly, forget what equipment, abilities, spells or magic items they have, and overall just not work together effectively. Unnecessary death is the worst kind! B2 is designed for 6-9 characters in a party assumed to have at least one magic-user and one cleric, and instructs the DM that smaller parties must have advice, NPCs and men-at-arms available to them. The DMG encounter tables for 'character party' always assumes a base of 9 characters. And in the back of the DMG, there are rules for starting out player characters at higher levels. So, I think there are plenty of options.
Scott has a house rule of starting out 1st level characters with max hit points. Another friend of mine, Eric, has been starting out player characters at 2nd level but 0 XP (so you still have to earn the full 4,001 XP to reach 3rd level). I think these are both good house rules that don't have any downside.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 6, 2018 11:51:30 GMT -5
I once played in a campaign in the late 90's (I played a 1st level cleric of "Paladine") where after maybe 8 four hour sessions on every other Sundays or so it was never anything more than mucking around talking with people. The DM superficially was a non-geek too. He was experienced with a lot of playing and fully progressed with the then current system as it was coming out, updated with Dragon magazines, it was just thats how it was. Looking back I must have been insane to keep going. You can't go back on shit like that but thats what D&D was in the 90's it was pure suck. For example, DARK SUN campaigns with mandatory 3rd level starting characters that were overbaked foreshadowing 3rd editions baroque stat blocks had that same too insane to get into combat mentality.
If you have to know the exponent of every possibility of what is going to happen it just overfries the roleplaying experience. It isn't a computer game, its not a story, its a simulation of adventure.
That is why I'm so reluctant to reexplain the original game over and over. I had that session for Kuntz's module "Blood something something" and most of them were asking me about explaining game differences for a module that frankly was far from what it was advertised as being.
When I get 1st level players I want some fresh blood this time no more burnt people who need game rehab.
My chief ideal will be to make sure the players realize they are fighting against enemies that need my support for it to be good but they, the players, need my support as well and that is what a referee is.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 6, 2018 12:16:03 GMT -5
I've figured out that I'm far from a "99th" level" expert DM! It is getting the DM rust off that's my challenge, and learning from you all things that you're comfortably attuned with like UA, which is like brand new material for me to learn how to handle?! At this point I can enjoy one beer while DM'ing - I don't want to get too slowed down losing my attention for running the game! It is a lot of fun to be running a campaign again, with the DMG sample dungeon lead-in to VOH now. The players are hooked and loving Greyhawk, which they all have never experienced. It was the fourth gaming session in that I had one of the players exclaim, "Greyhawk is awesome!" Then you're a successful DM!
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Post by Scott on Feb 6, 2018 14:00:32 GMT -5
There is great advice in B2 and the PH for players and DMs. I just reread that PH section in the Appendix, last night... Good advice about setting goals, being prepared, and above all cooperating with others. Many times I've seen player characters bumble along aimlessly, forget what equipment, abilities, spells or magic items they have, and overall just not work together effectively. Unnecessary death is the worst kind! B2 is designed for 6-9 characters in a party assumed to have at least one magic-user and one cleric, and instructs the DM that smaller parties must have advice, NPCs and men-at-arms available to them. The DMG encounter tables for 'character party' always assumes a base of 9 characters. And in the back of the DMG, there are rules for starting out player characters at higher levels. So, I think there are plenty of options. Scott has a house rule of starting out 1st level characters with max hit points. Another friend of mine, Eric, has been starting out player characters at 2nd level but 0 XP (so you still have to earn the full 4,001 XP to reach 3rd level). I think these are both good house rules that don't have any downside. To help, in the game I’ve been running for you and Mark I stocked the 1st level with a lot of healing magic: cleric scrolls and healing potions. You haven’t found any potions yet, but you did find multiple cleric cure scrolls. Unfortunately you don’t have a cleric.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 6, 2018 15:10:01 GMT -5
My priority the next time we play is to find a cleric willing to accompany us. Then we should be able to stay in the dungeon longer.
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 6, 2018 15:14:54 GMT -5
The biggest factor to get it as out of the package is what would the buyer back then do with it? People watched TV shows where "doc" would go fix you up and they were for the most part unfamiliar with a lot of the concepts that we take for granted like "splint mail" and "iron rations" and "two-handed swords". So there was a lot going on off the books for quite a few 1st level players with a new DM. There was no level up video games there was just the next screen and it would just reset. Thats what playing when I started. Sketchy. Who did what? Whats a "prime requisite"? Didn't somebody die? Can I play with my guy over from when we played at your cousin's house?
There also was elements of latter games that affected the mentality like LEGEND OF ZELDA (1986). Everyone that I played D&D with had played that game. So the concept of a healing fountain where you don't have to "restart" started nagging at people. We already had some sessions where people would randomly be healed by unknown forces and no one questioned it. I always questioned and started post-game chatter especially with my friends who were also DMs so that ended that "whatever the DM says" era for me.
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 6, 2018 16:36:58 GMT -5
Yeah, fantasy hadn't yet been standardized back then. Kids didn't know what to do with D&D when they got it, unless they learned to play from older, experienced folks. But a lot of it was kids DMing for other kids. And there were things that confounded us. I remember the alignment language confusing us a lot, and getting misused. One time my elf fell into a pit with skeletons in it. I tried to talk to them in the alignment language, and the DM, after thinking about it, decided that since the skeletons were neutral, I could try. I got a favorable reaction roll, and the skeletons gave me directions to where I was going... We were playing B1: In Search of the Unknown, and the DM had started us outside with some encounter areas he made up on his own. We started out in an inn on the edge of the Styish Forest, and we were trying to find the castle of the 'mad elf' so he may have changed some of the details about B1. We had trouble figuring some things out, but sometimes that prompted people to look things up, like from medieval history or folklore. Isn't that a good thing? Since fantasy hadn't yet been standardized, kids had different ideas about what fantasy adventure was, and games could be vastly different... One kid might have read a lot of Conan comics, and so that is what his world would be like, while another kid liked the legends of King Arthur and had a world built more on that angle. Or someone's game might be inspired by one of the Sinbad movies, or Greek mythology. It wasn't all homogenized yet. I actually miss that!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 28, 2018 14:10:41 GMT -5
There is great advice in B2 and the PH for players and DMs. I just reread that PH section in the Appendix, last night... Good advice about setting goals, being prepared, and above all cooperating with others. Many times I've seen player characters bumble along aimlessly, forget what equipment, abilities, spells or magic items they have, and overall just not work together effectively. Unnecessary death is the worst kind! B2 is designed for 6-9 characters in a party assumed to have at least one magic-user and one cleric, and instructs the DM that smaller parties must have advice, NPCs and men-at-arms available to them. The DMG encounter tables for 'character party' always assumes a base of 9 characters. And in the back of the DMG, there are rules for starting out player characters at higher levels. So, I think there are plenty of options. Scott has a house rule of starting out 1st level characters with max hit points. Another friend of mine, Eric, has been starting out player characters at 2nd level but 0 XP (so you still have to earn the full 4,001 XP to reach 3rd level). I think these are both good house rules that don't have any downside. It seems like the typical play during this campaign is that it takes six to twelve expeditions in a healthy-sized party in order for PCs to advance from first to second level...this is taking into account that there have been some PC deaths so far...of course, once some PCs make it successfully to second level or beyond, remaining first level PCs in the party tend to advance more quickly. That is what I have experienced in running past campaigns, after the initial start-up with all first level PCs, there are various PC deaths and some TPKs until the party figures out how to play more effectively together and some PCs make it past first level...a good-sized party (as well as an adversarial good-sized party, too) containing some characters beyond first level, tends to be more resistant to TPKs, as players learn to not fight everything, withdraw, run away, surrender, etc. So due to some periodic PC deaths and new characters, there is an assortment of PC levels within the party, which is typical in campaigns I have run...
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Post by Scott on Jul 28, 2018 14:46:56 GMT -5
6 to 12? My experience is more like 3 for most of the party to level. I couldn’t stand a game that dragged 1st level out like that.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 29, 2018 11:30:02 GMT -5
6 to 12? My experience is more like 3 for most of the party to level. I couldn’t stand a game that dragged 1st level out like that. I understand, and this party would probably drive you crazy if you were part of it: PC magic-user: "I know the spells detect magic, mending, read magic, and shocking grasp. I will memorize read magic as my sole spell for the next expedition to the moathouse. Yes, we agreed to give all scrolls found to Spugnoir, and even gave Spugnoir the Protection from Magic scroll Furnok offered up to join the party, despite he hadn't gone on any adventures with the party yet. I'm sure I can use read magic for something else in the moathouse." PC elven cleric/ranger: "I buy studded leather armor so I can move quietly while staying within ranks of the noisy party. There is a room ahead with ceilings covered by cobwebs and husks and bones in the center? I run up alone to search! I take the forefront in melee, so what if I have eight dexterity and studded leather armor, I have eleven hit points!" PC monk: "I rush into the midst of melee attack first chance I get, often getting surrounded by enemies. Why does my character suck so bad doing this? This wouldn't have happened to Bruce Lee, getting knocked to death's door by enemies in the first round!" "The elf searches the left wall of the room for secret doors. What, he finds nothing? There must not be anything at all in this room. The elf is the best at finding secret doors, and he found nothing! Another dumb empty room! So what if there are parallel vertical notches in a wall and one filled with wood scraps?"
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 29, 2018 11:54:20 GMT -5
Each time I have started a campaign, including this latest one, it has been with players brand spanking new or little experience playing D&D. Even some of the characters now, have had to un-learn some of the limited experience they have from other editions that is drastically different in first edition:
5th edition gives high experience points for killing monsters and completing milestones, and has very low experience points required to advance, especially at low levels. These players were stunned by low experience point totals for slaying monsters and amounts needed to level up compared to 5th edition. They were also stunned by slow natural healing of hit points and slow spell recovery...
So, there has been a lot of treasure, monetary and magical, that has been missed by the party. There have been PC deaths. There have been some very short expeditions that the monsters won.
So it's taking some time through the learning curve and high risk that inexperienced first level character parties face. My DM style maybe too much to the tougher (monster) side, I don't know? But I am an active DM, the monsters react, respond, change tactics, etc.
Have you ever had a party attempt to camp out in the Caves of Chaos to heal up? "Let's rest up in this Orc mess hall for the next week to heal up, then we'll go on adventuring to the next room!"
Here's another one: "Let's have a drinking contest at the local tavern, until only one of our PCs is left standing amongst the others who have passed out or gotten sick!" Next day: "what's up, DM, that we have missing coins and gear?!"
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 29, 2018 12:06:42 GMT -5
Its hard to disseminate exactly what the conditions of a game session are. I've had sessions where the entire party of players was unknowns off the street and were touchy. I like to give pep talks beforehand about how I'm a neutral referee who must follow through on all evil and good even if it makes me look lame.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jul 29, 2018 18:11:13 GMT -5
EGG stated before on dragonsfoot thread that good play by low-level characters meant level advancement in a half-a-dozen adventures or so, while poor play would take much longer...
He talked also about mid-level advancement taking 'months' up to about 8th level, then presumably taking longer from 8th level on...
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