Maces, flails, & morning stars

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

I assumed that a difference between a footman's mace or flail versus a
horseman's mace or flail was that the horseman's weapons are shorter, lighter one-handed weapons while the footman's versions are longer, heavier two-handed weapons - is this correct?

I was looking at the VOH moathouse brigands, and one of them has a flail and is armored with ring mail and shield - so would the flail he has be a horseman's flail that he is using on foot one-handed?

Are AD&D morning stars typically long-hafted, heavy two-handed weapons, yet some men with great strength are able to wield a morning star one-handed?

[geneweigel]

Here is an official 1982 TSR action figure that has a footman's flail at book length (4') with shield on Ebay:

www.ebay.com/i/381531372843?rt=nc

[geneweigel]

The bigger "space required" is for the swing around whether horizontal or vertical. From my personal training with the flail, compared to a sword its pure chaos. So the encumbrance (150) is based on "relative bulkiness" which it might be the worst for its size because its harder to fasten.

[foster1941]

The weapon stats in the AD&D PH were compiled in such a way that swords (long swords, broad swords, and scimitars) are intentionally the highest-damage weapons and everything else that does comparable damage is two-handed, including battle axes, all of the footman’s weapons, and morning stars. If you compare the lengths, weights, and speeds, look at historical examples, and read the more detailed weapon-type descriptions in Mythus (which, unsurprisingly, seem to be based on the same taxonomy) it’s all pretty clear. The only one-handed weapons that do more than 1-6 (or 2-5) are swords.

Alas, every subsequent module author, including Gary himself, ignored that, and there are countless examples of all of those weapons being paired with shields in NPC and pregen-PC stats. And because of that veteran players are used to seeing it that way, so the notion that any, much less all, of these weapons should be two-handed generates tons of pushback.

[Scott]

Dec 26, 2017 13:05:57 GMT -5 foster1941 said:

The weapon stats in the AD&D PH were compiled in such a way that swords (long swords, broad swords, and scimitars) are intentionally the highest-damage weapons and everything else that does comparable damage is two-handed, including battle axes, all of the footman’s weapons, and morning stars. If you compare the lengths, weights, and speeds, look at historical examples, and read the more detailed weapon-type descriptions in Mythus (which, unsurprisingly, seem to be based on the same taxonomy) it’s all pretty clear. The only one-handed weapons that do more than 1-6 (or 2-5) are swords.

Alas, every subsequent module author, including Gary himself, ignored that, and there are countless examples of all of those weapons being paired with shields in NPC and pregen-PC stats. And because of that veteran players are used to seeing it that way, so the notion that any, much less all, of these weapons should be two-handed generates tons of pushback.

I started running it this way a year or two ago. The Mythus rules have been great for clearing up a lot of the questions I've had for years.

[geneweigel]

I handle that as anything two-handed in wieldiness (giant-sized) that usually is considered one-handed (swords, battle axes, maces, hammers, etc) but has to be treated as hammer of thunderbolts with Strength being a factor. It keeps it simple.

However, in the case of two-handed versions there must be a legit proficiency consideration. My brother had brought attention to this measure in 1982 because of all the variant "big weapons" (mostly Conan imagery based) so there would be plenty of human leader types with weapons like a two-handed mace that required a proficiency.

[Scott]

It might be good to break the morning star down into 1and 2 handed varieties too. To me it seems apparent that the 4’ long PH morning star was meant to be a two handed weapon. But morning stars are listed as one of the common weapons for goblins, who are 4’ tall themselves. It’s also a pretty big bump in damage potential from the default d6, assuming that you’re using the ‘by weapon’ option. Any thoughts on damage? And what about those spiked clubs kobolds use?

[geneweigel]

I see the points made on DJ (LA isn't a good reference as its too "basic") but they seem vague enough that they can go either way. There is another "Gygaxian" reference thats more detailed on weapons but its in "D20-ese" however the attached descriptions are in his language: The WORLD BUILDER book published by Troll Lords which has some reference to LA as well. The stats have no space required, no speed, no armor numbers, no encumbrance or no large opponent damage so its a dead end for direct D&D but I'm sure someone could glean something out of it. The LA stats are even worse for vagueness.

[Scott]

I'm torn as to whether it's worth it to 'by weapon type' kobolds and goblins. The abstract, default damage values are supposed to reflect the relative difficulty the creatures should pose. At first level d6 damage dealing kobolds are a lot more leather than d4. Same thing with d6 goblins vs. 2d4 goblins. It's not such an issue when the party gains a level or two, but starting out it does make the little critters more lethal.

[geneweigel]

You can -1 to STR rolls for kobolds legally giving them minuses for the less than 8 scores.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Jan 2, 2018 20:59:12 GMT -5 geneweigel said:

You can -1 to STR rolls for kobolds legally giving them minuses for the less than 8 scores.

So roll individual 3d6-1 strength per each kobold? Then a group of kobolds would have average strength of 9.5 with some in a group having 3 to 8 strength ability scores? Apply pertinent strength modifiers to hit and damage to these kobolds?

Do you typically generate ability scores for other groups of humanoid monsters, and modify their attacks accordingly?

Maybe do kobolds 3d6-2 and goblins 3d6-1 for strength, giving average strength scores of 8.5 for kobolds and 9.5 for goblins - it's close to the stated humanoid averages in the DMG of 9 and 10 respectively?

[geneweigel]

I don't roll any abilities usually (especially on the "war" end of fantasy roleplaying then everything is human unless large.) I'm referring to page 15 DMG (1979):

Strength: The strength characteristic of a human or humanoid of any type,
and of player-characters in particular, is more than a simple evaluation of
the musculature of the body. Strength is a composite rating of physical
power, endurance, and stamina. A rating of 3, for example, indicates that
the creature in question has little of each of the three categories, a score of
10 or thereabouts shows that the creature has the norm for a human adult
male (based on an assumed medieval standard where the typical
individual was in "good shape" due to the necessity of hard labor), while
a score of 18 means that the creature has a composite rating far above
average in all respects. By way of comparison, kobolds will have an
average strength rating of 9, goblins 10, orcs 12, hobgoblins 15, gnolls 16,
bugbears 17, ogres 18, and trolls a strength rating of 18+. Gnomes have
an average strength rating of 10, dwarves 14, elves 12, halflings 8, and
giants 19 and up.
Exceptional Strength: Assume further that a strength of 18 indicates that
the creature can lift weight equal to its own body weight, or 180 pounds,
whichever is the greater, above its head. This rating is modified by a
restriction that no creature of human/humanoid nature can lift more than
twice its own body weight above its head. A human with an 18 strength
and an additional percentile dice roll is able to lift 1 additional pound for
every percentage point up to and including 50%, 4 pounds for every percentage
point from 51% to 90%, and 8 pounds for each percentage point
from 91 % to 00%.

if they're "nine" average and humans are "ten" then I just assumed minus one.

[GRWelsh]

Jan 2, 2018 19:34:27 GMT -5 Scott said:

I'm torn as to whether it's worth it to 'by weapon type' kobolds and goblins. The abstract, default damage values are supposed to reflect the relative difficulty the creatures should pose. At first level d6 damage dealing kobolds are a lot more leather than d4. Same thing with d6 goblins vs. 2d4 goblins. It's not such an issue when the party gains a level or two, but starting out it does make the little critters more lethal.

I agree with this. I'd rather these smaller humanoids be less lethal than more, at least initially. You can always add 'exceptionals' later. Also it is less record keeping to use the default damage values. I can easily justify smaller versions of these weapons that can be used one-handed and do 1-4 or 1-6 damage, respectively. For player characters, I'd be inclined to say the existing versions are one-handed, since that is the way they traditionally appeared in modules and miniatures. And then possibly add separate, two-handed versions that do more damage, to make an appealing alternative to swords and pole arms. And such heavy versions can appear in the hands of elite enemies, too, of course!

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

i have always treated kobolds and goblins as 1-4 or 1-6 damage {no hand held weapons} or by weapon type {PHB inference} as it states in the MM.

I just think morning stars are two handed weapons for small or medium demihumans, humans, and humanoids. Exceptions may possibly be considered for exceptional strength cases, and especially for strong large humanoids, I think?

In the case of kobolds or goblins with spiked clubs, I like the idea of either letting them use two handed only for normal PHB morning star damage, and thus no concurrent shield use, or else treat these as shorter, lighter horseman's mace damage range and weapon type perhaps? Or else substitute all spiked clubs {treat as morning star} references in MM to horseman's flails weapon type and damage. I think the PHB must have some priority regarding weapons due to it was published after MM and clarified specific weapons?

I also like the idea of some mods for humanoids - as was mentioned in another thread, kobold acid spit damage attack requiring a saving throw to avoid is a cool idea. What are some other MM attack or defense mods recommendations you all have used?

[geneweigel]

B2 THE KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS (1979) has variable kobold damage:

Class/level is only used for non-player characters (NPCs),
while Hit Dice is used for all other monsters. Movement in a
game turn is three times the movement given for one combat
round. NPCs save at the same level as their class level
of experience.

Examples: Taverner (AC 9, LVL 0, hp 6, #AT I, D 1-6, ML 8)
Guard (AC 4, F 1, hp 7, #AT 1, D 1-6, ML 10)
Kobold (AC 7, HD V2, hp 3, #AT 1, D 1-4, MV (40’)
Save NM, ML 6)

KOBOLD LAIR: <general info>
There is a 2 in 6 chance that as the group
enters the cave-like tunnel, 8 kobolds will come out
from hiding in the trees above and attack. Kobolds:
AC 7, HD 1/2,hp 3 each, #AT I, D 1-4, MV (40’), Save NM,
ML 6). Each carries d8 silver pieces.

1. GUARD ROOM: 6 kobold guards (AC 7. HD 1/2. hp 3
each, #AT I, D 1-4, Save NM, ML 6). They will throw their
spears the first round if they have initiative. Each carries
d6 silver pieces. One will run to warn areas 4. and 6..
The guards will be alerted by loud noises or lights.

4. GUARD ROOM: Here are 3 very large kobold guards
with chain mail and bows to fire down the passage at
attackers (AC 5, HD 1+ 1, hp 5 each, #AT I, D 1-6, MV
(40'), Save NM, ML 6). The guards will hide behind the
corner for cover, so all missiles fired at them will be at -2
“to hit”. Each carries a hand axe in his belt and a purse
with 2d6 gold pieces.

5. KOBOLD CHIEFTAIN’S ROOM: This huge kobold (AC 5,
HD 2, hp 8, #AT 1, D 2-8 (2d4), MV (40’), Save F 1, ML 8) is so
powerful that he fights with a battle axe. He has the key
to the storage room (#3.) and a large gem on a great
golden chain about his neck (value 1,200 gold pieces).
Five female kobolds (AC 7, HD 1/2, hp 2 each, #AT I,
D 1-3, Save NM, ML 8 due to the chief) are also in the
room. There are heaps of cloth and bits of battered furniture
in the place. Hidden in an old blanket hanging
on the wall are 50 gold pieces (sewn into the hem).
Each female has d6 gold pieces. A locked chest holds
203 copper, 61 silver, and 22 electrum pieces.

6. COMMON CHAMBER: The rest of the kobold tribe lives
here. There are 17 males (AC 7, HD 1/2,hp 3 each, #AT I,
D 1-4, MV (40’), Save NM, ML 6), 23 females (AC 7, HD 1/2,
hp 2 each, #AT 1, D 1-3, Save NM, ML 6), and 8 young
(which do not attack). If their caves are invaded, those
able will help in its defense. Males have d6 silver
pieces each, females d4 silver pieces each; the young
have nothing. Amidst the litter of cloth and bits and
scraps of odds-and-ends there is a piece of silk worth
150 gold pieces. (If the party does not search it will not
be located.)

40. SLAVE PEN: The iron door is secured by a bar, chain,
and heavy padlock. Inside is a litter of straw, a bucket,
and the following slaves: 3 kobolds (AC 9, HD 1/2, hp 2
each, MV (40’), Save NM, ML 6), 1 goblin (AC 9, HD l-l,
hp 3 each, MV (20’), Save NM, ML 7), 4 orcs (AC 9, HD I,
hp 5 each, MV (40’), Save F 1, ML 8), and 2 humans (AC 9,
F 1, hp 4 each, MV (40’), ML 7) - optionally add 1 dwarf
(AC 9, D 2, hp 12, MV (40’), ML 8) and 2 elves (AC 9, E 1, hp
7 each, MV (40’), ML 8) in place of 2 of the kobolds and 1
of the orcs. They are chained to the wall with a common
chain and a heavy padlock. All will fight against
the bugbears if given weapons. (Treat as AC 9 unless
protection is provided.) The humans will serve as those
noted in F., 24., above. The dwarf and elves, if used by
the DM, may agree to help the adventurers as long as
they stay in the Caves’ area continuously and fight. The
other creatures will desert at first opportunity.