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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 21, 2017 0:52:29 GMT -5
The previous three campaign sessions featured five expeditions in the DMG sample monastery adventure.
The party switched gears during tonight's fourth gaming session, heading west out of the Wild Coast, through the Gnarley Woods, and to the Village of Hommlet.
They went to the Inn of the Welcome Wench, and engaged with Elmo, Zert, Furnok of Ferd, Spugnoir, and Kobort & Turuko.
They are low on funds since the overland journey, desperate to adventure and find treasure.
The difficulties experienced in the DMG sample dungeon encouraged them to take up some NPCs with them to the moathouse to add to their six PCs.
They elected Furnok, Spugnoir, and Zert to join the party.
They turned down Elmo since they didn't want to use almost all of their combined remaining funds to purchase chain mail and an big axe for him.
They also turned down Kobort and Turuko, but the pair will be waiting for them whenever they come out of the moathouse...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 24, 2017 9:11:29 GMT -5
The PCs had conversation with Kobort and Turuko, but the result was that my son said, "we just met Lennie and George, it is a bad idea to be with those two"....
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 7, 2018 13:20:18 GMT -5
At breakfast at the Inn of the Welcome Wench, the PCs met up with Zert, Spugnoir, and Furnok of Ferd to make plans and set out for he moat house.
Elmo was also having breakfast, and approached the PCs: "if you don't have funds to buy chain mail, I will yet take on daily hire to accompany you to the moat house, if you also purchase leather armor and a BIG axe for me?"
The party decided to do just that, so they went to the trading post and met Gremag and Rannos Davl.
There was negotiations over prices, offers and counter offers, but before it was done, the PCs also hired on the traders' man-at-arms and groom/militiaman to guard their steeds when they arrived to the moat house. Gremag insisted that his men must not enter the moat house, since the PCs could not afford chain mail for the traders' men. Elmo then said he had to go say goodbye to his parents, the farmers {so he could don his +1 chain mail armor under the leather armor and exchange the battle axe purchased for his +1 battle axe}.
So the party of twelve set off for the moat house...unbeknownst to them, they were followed surreptitiously by Jaroo Ashstaff, whom Ostler Gundigoot had informed concerning a party discussing an expedition to the moat house...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 8, 2018 7:42:10 GMT -5
I feel the party has been learning since their initial forays into the Shrine of Norebo {DMG sample dungeon}. For the Shrine of Norebo adventure, they had the opportunity to hire up to five heavy footmen for their expeditions, but chose not to. I have been advising them and they saw during these expeditions, that AD&D 1e is a deadly, risky proposition for small groups of low-level adventurers, that good armor class, a mix of missle and melee weapons, and a mix of adventuring gear will be needed, as well as most certainly effective teamwork to overcome the dangers they will surely face.
There is a good mix of classes and races within the party {in my view, a weakness is only one cleric within the party}:
Zero/First level PCs -
Sylvan, grey elf cleric/ranger Athyra, half-{high}elf horsewoman {aspiring cavalier} Dontae, mixed Baklunish/Suloise monk Kerd, stout hobbit fighter/Druid Cornelius, Oeridian magic-user Nessabella, hill dwarf fighter
NPCs -
Zert Furnok of Ferd Spugnoir Elmo
At the Shrine of Norebo, the first expedition was with three new first level PCs, and could have easily ended up as a TPK. Even as additional PCs increased the party size to five, and then six, the players realized they were at great risk of deaths, if not a TPK.
In my view, the VOH moat house is extremely deadly to a small group of first level PCs, but is a good match and most fun for first level parties that add to their group with NPCs and mercenary men-at-arms. I just don't think it is very survivable if they had elected to take it on solely with a party of six zero/first level PCs.
Now, with six PCs, four NPCs, and the traders' two hirelings, the adventure will still be very difficult, but they have a chance with good play, and some other possible additions to the party over time.
It will be interesting to see now how the party performs and changes as the 'wheels within wheels' of this adventure unfolds. How will they handle party betrayals, ambushes, and thievery? Will squabbles over the division of treasures consume the party? Will the party reach out successfully within Hommlet to some of the major NPCs such as Rufus, Burne, Jaroo, and Terjon for more aid and involvement, as the dangers ramp up dramatically upon party penetration further into the adversaries' territory, possibly even attracting response(s) from Nulb and/or the temple forces?
I explained and emphasized the use of joss factors, per Trent's rules expansion. As a DM, some of the rust is now coming off, because I have not run a campaign since about 1984. Also, I am gaining familiarity using both UA and Trent's rules expansion.
Aah, this adventure is such a good one, we will see how the PCs fare...
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 8, 2018 10:06:29 GMT -5
You gave sound advice. With a party of that size they should have a chance. Bending things a bit to allow Elmo to join will probably turn out to be crucial -- good call!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 10, 2018 15:06:58 GMT -5
Furnok of Ferd offered up the protection of magic scroll, as it is states in the notes he is willing to do, hoping to parlay it into far more as a show of his good faith.
Cornelius took possession of the scroll.
Agreements as follows:
Furnok is in for an equal share of treasure found {including all he can surreptitiously lift, especially magic items, which he covets}.
Spugnoir is in for all scrolls found.
Zert is in for an equal share of the treasure found {until an opportune moment arises to betray the party and take everything!}
Elmo is in for daily man-at-arms payments, so he can purchase more ale at the inn.
The traders' men are in for daily men-at-arms payments, reporting everything of interest to the traders.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 18, 2018 13:45:18 GMT -5
Moathouse first expedition notes:
Five player characters {excluding the monk, Dontae}, set out for the moathouse with also Zert, Elmo, Spugnoir, Furnok of Ferd, and the traders' groom and man-at-arms. They were unaware that Jaroo Ashstaff was following the suspicious party {having been informed by the first pot boy at the Inn of the Welcome Wench that a large moathouse expedition was happening, this information communication initiated per the direction of Ostler Gundigoot} - Jaroo was undercover using his ring of invisibility.
The party cleared their way in a slow slog along the overgrown track to the moathouse. After seeing the silhouette of the moathouse ahead, they decided to dismount and leave their steeds outside in the care of the two traders' men.
Single file marching order: Nessabella, Spugnoir, Athyra, Elmo, Cornelius, Furnok of Ferd, Sylvan, Zert, Kerd.
The party approached the rotting drawbridge and broken gates, and were attacked by six giant frogs, with the two rangers, Elmo and Sylvan spotting them in time to avoid party surprise! The two large ones wrapped their tongues about Nessabella {the hill dwarf fighter} and Zert, while Spugnoir, Cornelius {attacked by two!}, and Sylvan were attacked by the smaller hopping, biting ones.
Zert and Nessabella both had enough body weight and other armor and gear to make it troublesome for the large frogs to pull the two party members quickly into their gaping maws. Zert and Nessabella both successfully hit the frogs tongues, and they were withdrawn.
Meanwhile, the other frogs hopped to the attack, biting at their prey. Sylvan and Spugnoir both took a minor bite wounds, and Cornelius took a serious bite wound, leaving him with one hit point remaining! Elmo cleaved one of the giant frogs that had attacked Cornelius, slaying it with his battle axe. Kerd shot arrows, wounding the large frog that had attacked Zert with its tongue. Attacks by Spugnoir, Sylvan, Athyra, Cornelius, and Furnok of Ferd each missed.
A second round of melee ensued, with the party winning initiative. The large frogs were now hopping to bite attack Nessabella and Zert, and the smaller frog that had already bitten Sylvan moved next to bite instead at Furnok of Ferd. The smaller frog that had bitten Spugnoir the previous round, instead turned to bite attack Nessabella. The remaining small frog switched targets to bite attack at Furnok of Ferd instead of Cornelius.
With a mighty two-handed blow from the dwarven battle axe double weapon specialist, the large thirteen hit point giant frog was slain by {18/18 strength} Nessabella. While an attack by Spugnoir missed, Athyra slew the smaller frog that had moved to bite attack Nessabella. Elmo now had his second kill, slaying one of the smaller frogs now attacking Furnok of Ferd. While Furnok of Ferd missed again, Sylvan's blow hit its target, running through the last of the smaller giant frogs. Zert, Kerd, and Cornelius attacked the wounded ten hit point large giant frog remaining, with Zert and Kerd combining for the finishing blows.
Some good success with the first battle! The party took a brief respite, with Sylvan casting CLW on Cornelius to bring him to full health. For now, confidence was in the air...
To be continued in post to follow...
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 18, 2018 14:04:48 GMT -5
With two rangers in this party, who are only surprised 1 out of 6, and the giant frogs surprising 4 out of 6 per VOH encounter notes, what is the correct ruling, for this case, party surprised 3 out of 6 or do the ranger bonuses instead stack so that the party is surprised 2 out of 6?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 18, 2018 14:19:37 GMT -5
Melee/missle targeting determinations ruling:
In a mass melee situation, how do you make rulings randomizing targeting of both missle and melee attacks for the party and for its adversaries?
For example, three party members are fighting two adversaries in melee, the party wins initiative. First party member hits with attack, and as DM I randomize which adversary is hit, and this adversary is slain. The second party member's attack also hits, does this automatically hit the remaining adversary, or do I randomize to see if this blow also hit the slain adversary by the first party member, since it happens at telatively the same initiative timeframe in the melee round? Do you treat any differently for missle attacks versus melee attacks? If party members and adversaries are all similar size engaged in melee, and missle/hurled weapons attacks are made into the mass melee, I make a count of the total number of targets in the melee, and randomize who is the target of the missle/hurled weapon attacks. Do you handle any differently for missle/hurled weapon specialists under UA rules or allow called shots at specific mass melee targets?
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 18, 2018 14:42:06 GMT -5
With two rangers in this party, who are only surprised 1 out of 6, and the giant frogs surprising 4 out of 6 per VOH encounter notes, what is the correct ruling, for this case, party surprised 3 out of 6 or do the ranger bonuses instead stack so that the party is surprised 2 out of 6? The simplest way to handle these situations is the convert the chance to be surprised and chance to surprise to %, take the difference between them, halve it, and add it to the chance to be surprised. So in this case 1 in 6 = 16.6, 4 in 6 = 66.6, 66.6 - 16.6 = 50.0, half of 50.0 is 25.00, 16.6 + 25.00 = 41.6 or rounded up to 42% chance of the party being surprised.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 18, 2018 15:57:26 GMT -5
Five of the six PCs seem to be enjoying their characters so far in the campaign, though everyone in the party has had some rough moments learning how to work effectively together as a team. As well they are noobs learning 1e AD&D together, how to best outfit their characters, take advantage of all of their individual character class and racial capabilities, and respond to the various adventuring challenges.
Dontae, the monk, I feel may not be having much fun overall. He is playing the character more like a fighter, often in the front rank in the thick of mass melee, and this is a very risky approach for an unarmored PC.
He is not really using the other monk abilites, like the thieving-shared ones.
And he is not necessarily well attuned to lawful neutral alignment - more tending toward neutral or even chaotic type alignment.
I'm thinking of discussing with this player if it's best to retire Dontae, and create a new fighter, ranger, hunter, cavalier, or archer single or multi-class PC, so the campaign will be more enjoyable for this player.
How have you all handled situations like this in the past?
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Post by GRWelsh on Jan 19, 2018 11:22:48 GMT -5
I played a monk, and it’s tough to because in your imagination there is this amazing martial artist but that’s not the reality. I used to joke that a 1st level monk was essentially a 2nd level magic-user who lost his spell book. If you play him as a fighter it is like running into melee with a magic-user. And if you don’t it isn’t clear what his role is. An inferior thief? A priestly demeanor without support abilities? A really fast linkboy?
Yeah I would definitely suggest switching to some kind of fighter.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Jan 19, 2018 11:58:27 GMT -5
I played a monk, and it’s tough to because in your imagination there is this amazing martial artist but that’s not the reality. I used to joke that a 1st level monk was essentially a 2nd level magic-user who lost his spell book. If you play him as a fighter it is like running into melee with a magic-user. And if you don’t it isn’t clear what his role is. An inferior thief? A priestly demeanor without support abilities? A really fast linkboy? Yeah I would definitely suggest switching to some kind of fighter. It's because of the issues you bring up, I have not ever had a campaign that a monk was a long-term PC. I really would have liked to see what EGG would have developed as a warrior-spy class that he mentioned to displace the monk class from the Flanaess - any ideas anyone has to design this undeveloped character class?
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 19, 2018 13:10:01 GMT -5
Gary's opinion on monks from POLYHEDRON #1 (MAY 1981) pages 5-6 an excerpt from "RPGA INTERVIEW WITH... E. GARY GYGAX":
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Post by geneweigel on Jan 25, 2018 13:43:50 GMT -5
I found an official ruling on the surprise question:
So its treated as a bonus.
Also remember that surprise doesn't randomly happen. Its an action. So it could all never happen.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 5, 2018 12:21:34 GMT -5
The PCs had conversation with Kobort and Turuko, but the result was that my son said, "we just met Lennie and George, it is a bad idea to be with those two".... I had originally thought that VOH has just this one John Steinbeck shout out {Of Mice and Men} found within, however upon digging some more, I am discovering there may be a more widespread general inspiration of Steinbeck's works that EGG had in mind while crafting VOH...? I haven't read Steinbeck's works other than Of Mice and Men, but now I feel that I might need to read: The Grapes of Wrath, The Winter of Our Discontent, East of Eden, In Dubious Battle, To a God Unknown, America and Americas, Tortilla Flat, and A Russian Journal. Also his newspaper articles: The Harvest Gypsies: On the Road to the Grapes of Wrath? Steinbeck's influences from his youth included Treasure Island, Robin Hood, and stories of King Arthur's Round Table. What have you all determined of any literary, comics, historical, religious, or other influences that spurred the crafting of VOH and need to be kept in mind to properly craft a Gygaxian TOEE?
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Post by GRWelsh on Feb 7, 2018 9:00:04 GMT -5
I don't know if Steinbeck inspired anything about the Village of Hommlet (other than Kobort and Turuko, which does seem rather obvious), or if EGG even read Steinbeck (Lennie and George were in popular culture, and still are, and even appeared in a 1961 Looney Tunes that I'm sure we've all seen)... EGG may have read Steinbeck, but I never heard that before. EGG did provide a list of inspirational reading, however: Appendix N in the DMG. I've been working through that list for decades, and still haven't quite completed it (there's a thread on it around here, somewhere). He often cited certain authors as his favorites, like Jack Vance, A. Merritt, Fritz Leiber, Robert E. Howard, and Edgar Rice Burroughs. I wouldn't say any of them need to be kept in mind to properly craft a Gygaxian TOEE, but they are all worth reading. doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/1149/appendixGene found some interesting links in comic books from the 50's, including horror comics, and I think he may have found the comic book that showed where the idea of Lolth came from: doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/1028/lolth-sourceI once read A LIFE OF ST CUTHBERT by an Anonymous Monk, to learn more about the real life St Cuthbert (not a lot of similarities to the in-game one, IMO). And I read Julius Caesar and other Roman writers for more information about the druids, just to try to get a better understanding on what they were really like (again, not too similar to the in-game versions). Although interesting reading, I don't think it really helps in developing or running T1 any better.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 7, 2018 9:24:56 GMT -5
Yes, I get over imaginative about these things going down rabbit trails and dead ends - I was hoping to find some more connections, but I'm thinking it's just Kobort and Turuko!
That's why it helps to discuss run things by you all on the boards because you guys are the freaking EGG apostles - I never met him, let alone spent time or worked with him, so I can be at a loss trying to look under rocks and interpret correctly. All I got is reading his work and sounding off here on different ideas!
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Post by geneweigel on Feb 7, 2018 10:06:26 GMT -5
Yes, I get over imaginative about these things going down rabbit trails and dead ends - I was hoping to find some more connections, but I'm thinking it's just Kobort and Turuko! That's why it helps to discuss run things by you all on the boards because you guys are the freaking EGG apostles - I never met him, let alone spent time or worked with him, so I can be at a loss trying to look under rocks and interpret correctly. All I got is reading his work and sounding off here on different ideas! Talking to Gary was just like that though. Going into sidetracks that were completely worthless to what you were getting at. You're doing a simulation! He asked so many questions about me and my background (animals, science) that were a complete waste of time as well. Some things that he said just deflated a lot of what I knew. Like the "Melf" action figure not representing "Melf". That was a big one. I was like "WHUH?". Here I thought it was the most legit Greyhawk toy and it was completely a coincidence. He said the LJN guy came up with all the names and backgrounds. And he elaborated on it with some dragged out story about bringing him in from the airport. It was great finding that out but at the same time, I wish that I had asked him something juicier. That started with when I mentioned in passing that there was only one Greyhawk action figure. A half hour later, guess what? There weren't any at all! Somethings I did ask him but he just didn't answer. Like I wanted a vague shape of Stoink: "Its on a river."
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Feb 22, 2018 9:14:18 GMT -5
Moathouse first expedition notes: Five player characters {excluding the monk, Dontae}, set out for the moathouse with also Zert, Elmo, Spugnoir, Furnok of Ferd, and the traders' groom and man-at-arms. They were unaware that Jaroo Ashstaff was following the suspicious party {having been informed by the first pot boy at the Inn of the Welcome Wench that a large moathouse expedition was happening, this information communication initiated per the direction of Ostler Gundigoot} - Jaroo was undercover using his ring of invisibility. The party cleared their way in a slow slog along the overgrown track to the moathouse. After seeing the silhouette of the moathouse ahead, they decided to dismount and leave their steeds outside in the care of the two traders' men. Single file marching order: Nessabella, Spugnoir, Athyra, Elmo, Cornelius, Furnok of Ferd, Sylvan, Zert, Kerd. The party approached the rotting drawbridge and broken gates, and were attacked by six giant frogs, with the two rangers, Elmo and Sylvan spotting them in time to avoid party surprise! The two large ones wrapped their tongues about Nessabella {the hill dwarf fighter} and Zert, while Spugnoir, Cornelius {attacked by two!}, and Sylvan were attacked by the smaller hopping, biting ones. Zert and Nessabella both had enough body weight and other armor and gear to make it troublesome for the large frogs to pull the two party members quickly into their gaping maws. Zert and Nessabella both successfully hit the frogs tongues, and they were withdrawn. Meanwhile, the other frogs hopped to the attack, biting at their prey. Sylvan and Spugnoir both took a minor bite wounds, and Cornelius took a serious bite wound, leaving him with one hit point remaining! Elmo cleaved one of the giant frogs that had attacked Cornelius, slaying it with his battle axe. Kerd shot arrows, wounding the large frog that had attacked Zert with its tongue. Attacks by Spugnoir, Sylvan, Athyra, Cornelius, and Furnok of Ferd each missed. A second round of melee ensued, with the party winning initiative. The large frogs were now hopping to bite attack Nessabella and Zert, and the smaller frog that had already bitten Sylvan moved next to bite instead at Furnok of Ferd. The smaller frog that had bitten Spugnoir the previous round, instead turned to bite attack Nessabella. The remaining small frog switched targets to bite attack at Furnok of Ferd instead of Cornelius. With a mighty two-handed blow from the dwarven battle axe double weapon specialist, the large thirteen hit point giant frog was slain by {18/18 strength} Nessabella. While an attack by Spugnoir missed, Athyra slew the smaller frog that had moved to bite attack Nessabella. Elmo now had his second kill, slaying one of the smaller frogs now attacking Furnok of Ferd. While Furnok of Ferd missed again, Sylvan's blow hit its target, running through the last of the smaller giant frogs. Zert, Kerd, and Cornelius attacked the wounded ten hit point large giant frog remaining, with Zert and Kerd combining for the finishing blows. Some good success with the first battle! The party took a brief respite, with Sylvan casting CLW on Cornelius to bring him to full health. For now, confidence was in the air... To be continued in post to follow... Time to start catching up on campaign expedition notes: The party crept single file across the rotting drawbridge, passing through the broken gates on the other side to enter the moathouse. Looking ahead, they saw broad, littered steps to the house portion of the fortress, and warily eyed surrounding arrow slits. Scanning about the area, they noticed a door at the crippled tower to their left. The party approached this door, Athyra forcing it open. A torch was lit, and Athyra peered into the shadowy darkness, noticing a scattering of husks and a few bones on the floor of the place. The tower's upper portion was collapsed. The gleam of coins tempted investigation by Athyra, and she swiftly entered the tower to greedily lay claim to an ivory box espied within... A great wolf spider pounced to the attack from the remains of the upper floor overhead! Battle ensued, with Sylvan, Nessabella, and Kerd rushing to Athyra's aid. By the time Kerd struck the finishing blow on the huge critter, Athyra, Sylvan, and Nessabella were all fallen, either writhing in convulsions from spider poison or lapsing to unconsciousness from deep bite wounds! Crestfallen, the surviving party members were stunned and lapsed into horrific shock. A rumbling voice, like the sound of a creaking oak, intoned from the moathouse courtyard, "perhaps you are in need of succor?", as Jaroo Ashstaff stepped into view...stooping to both relieve the thrall of poisonous veins and bind the wounds of the fallen, "you must be very cautious, this is a dangerous place, and once a demesne of gnarled wickedness! I cannot always be near to look after you all!" And with that, Jaroo took his leave, and with lurching strides, crossed out through the moathouse gate, eventually engulfed by the ravenous wild terrain... The party gathered themselves and slinked back into Hommlet, their mettle bowed, but etched in discernment from the learned Druid of the Grove....
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