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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 24, 2017 15:45:48 GMT -5
It states in VOH that Spugnoir the Evoker "has learned that a warlock was housed in the ruined moat house, and plans to quietly search it."
Does this open up the possibility that Falrinth {warlock} was originally lord over the moat house and escaped when it was being destroyed? Was Falrinth repurposed by Frank Mentzer from EGG's notes?
How might Falrinth have been envisioned by EGG in his original vision with Lolth and the EEG in the TOEE?
Or might the moat house warlock instead be escaped Senshock, advanced to a now 9th level sorcerer?
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 24, 2017 19:35:28 GMT -5
I rather think the warlock was an unnamed henchman of the evil cleric who was lord of the place, and that neither of them escaped... or the warlock being there was just a (false) rumor.
Both Falrinth and Lareth seem like more recent additions to the Temple factions, with Lolth wanting to get her own catspaws (pedipalps?) into an attempted power grab.
But it could be Senshock... He may have used the escape tunnel in the dungeon to get away 10 years ago, during the siege of the moathouse.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 24, 2017 20:24:11 GMT -5
Interesting...do both Senshock and Falrinth have the flavor of being created by EGG, or do you think Frank Mentzer created Falrinth?
If EGG had completed TOEE with his original scheme, would Senshock have been an agent of Lolth or of the EEG?
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foster1941
Warlock
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 24, 2017 23:59:33 GMT -5
Falrinth feels to me like a definite Mentzer addition. Certainly his lair, with the dubiously-ruled illusion trap, feels like something straight out of one of Mentzer’s other modules.
I’m actually convinced Frank created the entire Yellowskull subplot, which puts an interesting spin on the whole adventure, and makes you realize how much trouble Gary was having with it c. 1980-83: he had a dungeon and a lot of encounters and NPCs but didn’t really have a “hook” to make it all hang together as a coherent whole until Frank came along.
I’m thankful Frank took the project on because if he hadn’t it almost certainly wouldn’t ever have been published and would be just one more frustrating could-have-been, but it’s also undeniable that the parts of the published adventure I like least - Falrinth, Yellowskull, and the Nodes - are the parts that seem most clearly to have been Frank’s contributions (the bandits in the Broken Tower also feel more like Frank than Gary to me - both the way that encounter is written with it’s super-detailed tactics, but also the way it ties in to Falrinth and Smigmal). I’d still like to see what Gary’s work-in-progress manuscript looked like, before it was handed over to Frank. We know it still exists, because Frank tried to auction it off c. 2007 - it would be cool If a facsimile edition of it became public someday.
Senshock seems more likely to have been created by Gary, but it’s worth remembering that Frank re-wrote the entire thing from Gary’s manuscript, adding and editing as he went along, so even if the original creation was by Gary, there’s almost certainly some Grank in the final published version. Especially since, as I understand it, the deeper the dungeon level the less complete Gary’s notes were.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 26, 2017 11:07:38 GMT -5
If there is truth that a warlock had in the past been at the moat house, it is interesting to think how Spugnoir heard about this?
Is it possible that a faction of the TOEE is opposing Lareth's faction laired at the moat house, and that Spugnoir's mentor in Verbobonc was directed to plant this information by agents of Senshock, who has a escape route available to Verbobonc?
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 28, 2017 8:57:35 GMT -5
I'm not following, Dave. Why would Senshock want an escape route available to Verbobonc? If you are asking is it possible one Temple faction would plant information to lure adventurers to the moat house to "take care" of another faction, sure that is possible. They're chaotic evil!
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 28, 2017 11:06:26 GMT -5
In TOEE notes regarding Senshock: "should the temple guards suffer defeat, he will take his place in the throne room (area 435) to brief Zuggtmoy about the events, and will then teleport out to a well-studied secret retreat in Verbobonc."
I am wondering, based on this note, if Senshock would have placed this rumour 'that a warlock was housed in the ruined moat house' say within a mage's guild in Verbobonc, that Spugnoir's mentor then passed on to his young Evoker?
If Senshock had been at the moat house a decade ago, and now suspects or knows that Lareth has set up a rival TOEE faction to the current TOEE greater temple faction, this could be his ploy to smoke out/disrupt/destroy this rival faction and gain the favor of Iuz, since Senshock "has been assured (by Zuggtmoy) of the position of High Commander and General of all the Temple's mighty forces once the reconstruction is complete. Iuz has been noncommittal about this, so Senshock is trying to gain Iuz favor in any way possible."
Is the above plausible intrigue 'wheels within wheels' scenario - would it fit Gygaxian style?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 28, 2017 11:47:42 GMT -5
I'm trying to unravel what might have been the original EGG vision for TOEE factions versus what may be Frank Mentzer modifications and/or alterations after Lolth was replaced by Zuggtmoy?
In the TOEE module as presented, it seems like Senshock, Deggum, and Lareth may be within the same faction, unless Deggum is keeping his relationship or motives with Lareth secret from Senshock and Hedrack, due to Deggum and Lareth are instead coordinating to usurp and rule the greater temple?
Or has Lareth duped Deggum, and Senshock suspects something is amiss?
Is Lareth and whoever is in his faction intending an eventual eye of fire troops usurpation of iuz's grinning red horned skull forces upon achieving their goal of the release of TOEE's trapped demon?
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 28, 2017 12:06:11 GMT -5
Ah, I see what you're saying now. This is a possible intrigue, but not the most intelligent one. After all, if Senshock lures adventurers to the moat house dungeon to deal a blow to a rival faction, he'd have to (being intelligent) expect those same adventurers to follow up on that by exploring the Temple itself... where he is. I was under the impression the Temple forces may not want to reveal the full extent of just how much they've re-inhabited the Temple ruins and dungeon quite yet, and that although the Temple factions scheme against each other, they'd still work together against outside threats -- like adventurers, paladins from Furyondy and Veluna, elves from the Gnarley Forest and Celene, etc. But there is a sort of karmic irony to idea of the restored Temple being brought low by the nature of evil chaos itself, i.e. their own scheming and backstabbing.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 28, 2017 13:17:06 GMT -5
Maybe Senshock might also be motivated to expose and quietly eliminate the suspected forces of good working in the VOH/Nulb area distracting and drawing them away to the moat house instead of risking them infiltrating at the temple, in order to win Iuz's favor, 'killing two birds with one stone' kind of scheme? Or is Senshock testing Lareth's competency or loyalty via the lure of good agents Senshock intends to be dispatched by Lareth's forces at the moat house?
It is difficult to follow the TOEE factions and their possible motivations as presented in TOEE, let alone what are Mentzerisms or mods due to Zuggy's replacement of Lolth.
There are so many intrigue faction options for VOH/TOEE - what might be the closest achievable reconfiguring of TOEE to inject and evoke Gygaxian flavor and go back to Lolth and EEG {deleting Zuggtmoy} at the TOEE?
Was Falrinth a complete Mentzer addition? Is it possible EGG's TOEE manuscript has Senshock in possession of some of the items that are shown attributed to be in Falrinth's possession, such as the unfolding Lolth shrine, magical tomes/mirror/crystal ball, quasit familiar?
Has Senshock been directed by the trapped TOEE demon into disruptive chaotic actions since Iuz has been unwilling to press immediately for this demon's release?
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 28, 2017 13:26:13 GMT -5
Ah, I see what you're saying now. This is a possible intrigue, but not the most intelligent one. After all, if Senshock lures adventurers to the moat house dungeon to deal a blow to a rival faction, he'd have to (being intelligent) expect those same adventurers to follow up on that by exploring the Temple itself... where he is. I was under the impression the Temple forces may not want to reveal the full extent of just how much they've re-inhabited the Temple ruins and dungeon quite yet, and that although the Temple factions scheme against each other, they'd still work together against outside threats -- like adventurers, paladins from Furyondy and Veluna, elves from the Gnarley Forest and Celene, etc. But there is a sort of karmic irony to idea of the restored Temple being brought low by the nature of evil chaos itself, i.e. their own scheming and backstabbing. [br
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 28, 2017 13:42:29 GMT -5
I guess I am speculating that Senshock may not envision himself staying long term at the TOEE, his overriding concern instead being the release of the trapped demon, and if he is completely under the thrall of this demon, as I envision him to be, chaotic scheming versus Iuz and his forces may be an intelligent plan?
Maybe Hedrack or his allies under Iuz planted the moat house warlock rumour to distract suspected local forces of good away from the TOEE to the moat house and Lareth to test his competency and to test the loyalty of Deggum and Senshock?
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 29, 2017 7:50:57 GMT -5
Sure, you can give these NPCs any back story you want, and I think adding layers of intrigue is very Gygaxian. Senshock might be so obsessed with freeing Zuggtmoy that he is willing to make a dangerous gambit.
I really don't know what parts of the ToEE are EGG versus what parts are Mentzer... There has been a lot of discussion about this, but it is speculation since we don't have access to the original manuscript. Most people seem to think Falrinth and the Nodes are from Frank Mentzer, and that in general, the deeper you go into the dungeon, the more Mentzer it gets. Until (if) we get to see the manuscript, we can't really know what EGG's original vision was.
Taken as is, my view of the various NPC motivations goes something like this: the Temple is on the rise again and quickly gaining recruits, but the leaders do not want another defeat like they had in 569 CY. So, this time around they are more secretive and covert in building up their strength. They've been at it for at least six years, per the background detail for Barkinar. So, if it is currently 579 CY, the defeated ochre-robed men and humanoids seen fleeing south and west through Hommlet in 569 CY began creeping back to the Temple by no later than 573 CY. Also, that is when Prince Thrommel went missing... Hmmm... There are seven factions within the Temple this time around, each vying for power, and probably the only thing they agree on is that they don't want to draw too much attention to themselves just yet. That is why guys like Lareth raid far away and not near. The descriptions of Senshock, Deggum and Lareth don't imply they are in the same faction, but show some of the relationships that exist across factions. Lareth is a young rising star, and is seen as promising but isn't yet at the level to be considering usurping leadership of the Greater Temple. It's unlikely any of the Temple leaders want to lure anyone to the moat house because logically the next step would be to investigate the Temple, and they're not ready to openly reveal themselves yet. They have spies in Hommlet to notify them of such activity and take measures against it.
Since these guys are chaotic evil, though, there is still plenty of room for some crazy motivations. Take Thrommel for example. Why not just kill him? Why take the trouble to put him in stasis and conceal him in the illusion of a vampire? It seems like a set up intended to have adventurers or would be rescuers to kill him, which would be tragic, allowing the bad guys to have their "ghastly jape" at the forces of Weal... But it's still kind of crazy.
"Ha ha, you killed your own Prince! Ha, ha!"
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Nov 29, 2017 9:49:16 GMT -5
Thrommel's scenario and the TOEE motivation for disguising him as a vampire are obscure to the point of being incomprehensible! I have never understood this TOEE thread? Does Iuz have some secret genius scheme which is why Thrommel is left alive but in stasis evil disguise? Can Thrommel not be killed by a TOEE agent for fear of incurring immediate intervention by St Cuthbert? Does TOEE leadership really think their defenses will be penetrated by the agents of good, who then mistakenly slay Thrommel, instead of penetrating the ruse and loosing an immediate threat to the survival of the TOEE? Is it connected to this note "Senshock is privy to certain secrets of Iuz, but will never reveal anything of great import. If captured and examined by ESP or similar means, however, Senshock can provide one interesting tidbit - Iuz is working against the Scarlet Brotherhood, and seeks both Zuggtmoy (whose location is unknown even to him) and his mother Igwlf (believed lost in the great Abyss) to aid him in this task. If charmed or otherwise magically coerced to reveal his secrets, Senshock will suddenly and mysteriously die, slain by Iuz himself." ---- !!! What do you make of this???
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 29, 2017 13:41:57 GMT -5
Thrommel's scenario and the TOEE motivation for disguising him as a vampire are obscure to the point of being incomprehensible! I have never understood this TOEE thread? Does Iuz have some secret genius scheme which is why Thrommel is left alive but in stasis evil disguise? Can Thrommel not be killed by a TOEE agent for fear of incurring immediate intervention by St Cuthbert? Does TOEE leadership really think their defenses will be penetrated by the agents of good, who then mistakenly slay Thrommel, instead of penetrating the ruse and loosing an immediate threat to the survival of the TOEE? Is it connected to this note "Senshock is privy to certain secrets of Iuz, but will never reveal anything of great import. If captured and examined by ESP or similar means, however, Senshock can provide one interesting tidbit - Iuz is working against the Scarlet Brotherhood, and seeks both Zuggtmoy (whose location is unknown even to him) and his mother Igwlf (believed lost in the great Abyss) to aid him in this task. If charmed or otherwise magically coerced to reveal his secrets, Senshock will suddenly and mysteriously die, slain by Iuz himself." ---- !!! What do you make of this??? That passage (which I'd forgotten about) seems - to me - to more firmly establish Senshock's Gygaxian (as opposed to Mentzerian) antecedents, since it's a direct foreshadowing of Artifact of Evil (and the alternate spelling of Iggwilv makes it look more like an work-in-progress note by Gary, possibly predating publication of S4, than something added at the last minute by Frank based on knowledge of Gary's upcoming novel). Regarding Thrommel, the truth is it doesn't really stand up to logical scrutiny (similarly to how the champion of lawful good has a chaotic good artifact for some reason) and only works in-the-moment as a puzzle for the players. If you need to justify it, then the best way is probably that Thrommel is protected by some sort of divine prophecy that he can't be slain by Abyssal powers, so Iuz and his followers couldn't slay him and the attempt to trick good adventurers into accidentally killing him is their attempt to circumvent the letter of the prophecy. That also helps explain why he's being stored within the dungeons of the Temple and not someplace safer, like Dorakaa or somewhere in the Abyss.
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Post by Scott on Nov 29, 2017 14:00:48 GMT -5
My thoughts on Thrommel revolve around divination magic and clone. It’s obvious the stasis he’s in prevents detection, but if you kill him then that would be something that could be confirmed, and being part of the royal family means clone is probably an option. Everything he knows would then be available to the forces of good, including a confirmation that the ToEE is back.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Nov 29, 2017 16:05:15 GMT -5
Good point - that keeping Thrommel alive in stasis effectively prevents his family from being able to clone him is a wrinkle that had slipped my mind...
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Post by geneweigel on Nov 29, 2017 22:45:13 GMT -5
The obvious also about Thrommel is that its an evil act as simple as having good killing good to promulgate chaos and evil because the cult needs that kind of energy being a relatively new cult.
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Post by GRWelsh on Nov 30, 2017 8:51:18 GMT -5
I don't see see the clone option as something that would likely to be used by royal families in the Flanaess, because it is a very risky and uncertain necromantic magic. If you don't handle it just right, it ends in disaster. There's nothing about the temporal stasis spell that implies it will negate the effects in the clone spell of the original and the duplicate knowing of each other's existence, desiring to do away with each other, and going insane or committing suicide if they can't. A person -- or a clone of a person -- in stasis exists, he just isn't affected by time. I've never seen the clone spell as a reliable "Here's a back-up version of me in case I die" spell, or a magic-user's loophole to resurrection. In fact, you could read it the other way, and conclude that creating a clone of Thrommel is a tactic the bad guys might want to use in order have the Thrommels fight each other, which could certainly cause chaos and discord, or have one or both go insane or even commit suicide if kept apart!
When I read the description of the clone spell, the theme that jumps out at me is that the universe will not tolerate a paradox. The law of identity states that it is impossible for both p and not-p to be true at the same time! "If I'm me and you're me, but you are also someone other than me... What sense does that make? Agh! I cannot accept this!" This is not as simple as creating an 'identical' twin brother (who really isn't completely identical and isn't you), or a back-up body your soul can download into if your original body dies. No, this is a wizard spell that tampers with reality, and may be a "some things are best not meddled with" theme.
I think the way most people would try to make this work is to cast a clone spell on someone, and then cast temporal stasis on the duplicate before it is fully grown and dual existence is established, and then to store the duplicate in stasis somewhere safe, and only remove the stasis after the original's death is confirmed. Clean and simple, right? But there are still all sorts of risks. What if someone finds the duplicate and dispels the stasis prematurely? Or, what if the original has a raise dead or resurrection cast on him after the clone is removed from stasis and fully grown? There are all kinds of ways this could go bad.
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Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Dec 29, 2017 13:46:43 GMT -5
I rather think the warlock was an unnamed henchman of the evil cleric who was lord of the place, and that neither of them escaped... or the warlock being there was just a (false) rumor. Both Falrinth and Lareth seem like more recent additions to the Temple factions, with Lolth wanting to get her own catspaws (pedipalps?) into an attempted power grab. But it could be Senshock... He may have used the escape tunnel in the dungeon to get away 10 years ago, during the siege of the moathouse. If the rumored warlock that Spugnoir heard about being housed at the moathouse was not Senshock from a decade ago, perhaps instead this warlock was done in previously by the ghouls and/or the giant crayfish, since there is a human skull and bones littered in the pool area, as well as a water-tight tube holding a magic user's scroll; and there is also both a protection from undead scroll and potion found within the ghouls' noisome den?
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