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Post by Scott on Jul 7, 2017 12:55:00 GMT -5
This is the upcoming adventure featuring Acererak I mentioned previously. Set in the Forgotten Realms in Chult, an area I guess would be pretty easy to convert to the Vast Swamp. Due out some time in September. Some of what I've read does seem to be a good basis to build an adventure around. It's got me wondering though, what would a new Greyhawk look like since al of its classics have been plundered for the FR? It could be a good thing, since new Greyhawk writers have often tied classic material to their new stuff. I do get tired of the same beings/themes being used over and over again.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 10, 2017 8:05:26 GMT -5
That's a good point. I don't want to see another "Return to" or "Expedition to" series. I don't mind nostalgia, but the modern sequels usually don't recapture what made the original special, so I'd rather they just did something original. "Return to the Tomb of Horrors" was the one I liked the most, and I still have that boxed set (I just looked through it again, and it's weird to think it is nearly 20 years old! 1998. The next thing is going to be nostalgia about nostalgia products! "Return to the Return to the Pit of Lucrative Nostalgia"). I'd like to see writers just do their own thing, but have it happen to be set in the World of Greyhawk and not contradict anything EGG created, i.e. show some knowledge of the history and background, and show respect for the original setting. But stay away from Acererak, Vecna, Iuz, St Cuthbert, Iggwilv, Tharizdun, the Temple of Elemental Evil, Lolth, the Drow, or yet another illegitimate version of Castle Greyhawk. And really stay away from Robilar, Tenser, Mordenkainen, et al. One of my pet peeves is later writers trying to make use of these iconic player characters, but getting details wrong and/or just flat out misusing them.
I'd like to see something entirely original, but maybe with a few easter eggs or name references for the old time Greyhawk fans.
P. S. I do think it would be cool to run a Skype or Google Hangouts game that had Tenser show up as an NPC, and then Ernie Gygax himself dials into to play that part! Or Luke dialing in to play Melf, that sort of thing. As a cameo appearance.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 10, 2017 10:21:21 GMT -5
The wordage of the second edition material is what really offputs me. You would finish a new thing and put it down thinking where is the game use? Its like the wordage vs content ratio was almost non-existent because the content was like one thing and less than half an idea per supplement/module.
The third edition era of trying to continue under pressure to come up with stat driven material was worse because, with 3E, the D&D was no longer an "at-a-glance-content-to-table" type game and was more like a "high-memorization-tetris-of-incoming-micro-game-systems" type game so all this jibber jabber of "ye old Lorrainehawk" was now quaint and completely out of touch. So they did superficialities as an overhaul to everything. Mordenkainen was now a bald guy. etc.
For a new Greyhawk that would be a revival, it just has to have tons of content with no offputting style trends or awkward lip service added in.
Its all a matter of lack of designers who want to sacrifice the best ideas that they have to serve the legacy of Greyhawk like Gary did. Especially to a bloated game maker that has almost no designer recognition. Thats the big hill to get over.
That whole Greyhawk short story/Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure sequel DRAGON/DUNGEON isuues signed off by Gary was probably the worst cash-in backstab to all the fans. To our view it was mediocre but to the acolytes of bad D&D it just justified their stance that its all mediocre style. I looked the other way because I thought CASTLE ZAGYG was going to be good.
D&D needs a complete restoration simplicity-wise and style-wise for a Greyhawk revival. The fact that they're doing this TOMB OF ANNIHILATION in the Forgotten Realms with all the clunks of Fifth Edition just says they've given up on D&D altogether.
I'm betting this FR thing is going to be not worth any conversion.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 10, 2017 14:24:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd like to see a return to the shorter page lengths for adventures, for sure.
What was the Greyhawk short story? I heard the Maure Castle stuff in DUNGEON Magazine by RJK was good, but I missed out on that.
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Post by Scott on Jul 10, 2017 14:53:27 GMT -5
I think that's one of the keys to a Gygax Greyhawk feel. Gary was a much bigger fan of the short pulp stories than the lengthy fantasy epics. Forget the 1st through 20th level epic adventures in hardback books. Also, humanocentric is very Gygaxian Greyhawk. Everything is so hodgepodge now. Hodgepodge is the new generic.
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Post by geneweigel on Jul 10, 2017 15:01:49 GMT -5
In Dragon there was a short story that was supposedly co-authored by Gary Gygax. The writer (I've mentioned before), I could never really explain in detail because he came to my house then I went to his house so its too close of a shave to go over the whole weird interaction warts and all in public but he is in my DM's Rogues Gallery for sure.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jul 10, 2017 16:14:17 GMT -5
G1 was 7 pages of actual text, not counting the cover page. S1 was 11 pages of actual text, not counting cover page or character roster pages. B2 was 22 pages of actual text. And these are among the greatest classics ever written. I'd like to see some new adventures written in that style. There's no reason that cannot be done.
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Post by Scott on Jul 10, 2017 17:53:10 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree. Recently I was thinking about what could set Greyhawk apart, or give it a unique feel. And the humanocentric feel, and the pile style adventures were what I came up with. It's easy to get sucked into the epic quest, but consciously thinking pulp fee might make it easier.
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Post by grodog on Jul 15, 2017 16:45:10 GMT -5
I heard the Maure Castle stuff in DUNGEON Magazine by RJK was good, but I missed out on that. It's good, and worth tracking down, Gary: Dungeon issues 112, 124, 139. Allan.
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Post by grodog on Jul 15, 2017 16:47:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree. Recently I was thinking about what could set Greyhawk apart, or give it a unique feel. And the humanocentric feel, and the pile style adventures were what I came up with. It's easy to get sucked into the epic quest, but consciously thinking pulp fee might make it easier. The adventures for Jeff Talanian's ASSH have a strong puly vibe to them, and are quite fun to play! See www.hyperborea.tv/products.htmlAllan.
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Post by Scott on Oct 15, 2017 8:48:59 GMT -5
I bought this. It's very much a 5E Forgotten Realms adventure. No old school/Greyhawk vibe at all. Some of it is just goofy: weekly dinosaur races, a real effort to use the lame Fiend Folio, etc. monsters that nobody ever uses. I was surprised to see that it also rehashes Dwellers of the Forbidden City.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 15, 2017 11:18:29 GMT -5
In a way I kind of hate D&DINO because the fear is in every product. Its like no popping extrapolation as creativity just low rate card shuffling of known subjects as creativity. The technique has been used since when Gygax was aboard with various products. A good example of this would be the second parts of the Pharaoh "trilogy". The first was already produced outside and was a success. But once Hickman was on board at TSR for the official D&D reprint it seems it might have been more about Blume brothers nose blow party time that I've heard so much about than giving us solid dungeon. So the next two parts probably shaped the entire RPG market. You could sell covers, continuance and hype and people will still buy it. My experience was always "Well... It has an atmospheric cover...." 30 dollars later.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Oct 16, 2017 12:08:19 GMT -5
You could sell covers, continuance and hype and people will still buy it. My experience was always "Well... It has an atmospheric cover...." 30 dollars later. For me the quintessential example of that will always be module H2: The Mines of Bloodstone. The cover totally sold me on that one - not just the atmospheric Keith Parkinson art (which I still think is pretty cool) but even the blurb "a deadly dungeon for character levels 16-18." Alas, every single one of the 48 pages within was total, unmitigated garbage. I remember as a kid trying to rewrite this into something cool and decent that lived up to the promise of the cover and eventually declaring it to be an impossible task and giving up.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 16, 2017 13:30:31 GMT -5
That module H2 THE MINES OF BLOODSTONE (1986) was ran by my friend Taylor so he streamlined it but it created an imaginative sleepines amongst the group because the ready to go module was dead and the days of grab and go were over. After that single module, many who were once ready to go DMs had given up totally and dropped out. Many regular players didn't stick around at all for T1-4 that I recall at that point. Our T1-4 sessions were filled with new blood extreme. So they were not even in on the true feel of D&D which is a shame. I remember H2 jump started the march towards the Forgotten Realms with everyone which would hit the wall hard.
Tomb of Horrors in the Forgotten Realms as official, while its interesting as to how they've added to it (which seems like they probably didn't), as a fan and creative person it just seems to be the 11th hour of D&D fail. Its like "Hey, Hasbro dude, you have a rancid turd in your beard." "ELITIST!".
I think on some level, I have to check it out but I think that for many of us here its just running to see the horrific traffic accident.
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Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2017 6:27:29 GMT -5
They don't really re-write Acererak's history. They write that he explored multiple dimensions, and the 5E adventure is his foot print in the FR. it just happens to be associated with a ruined city in the jungle that is remarkably similar to the Forbidden City on Oerth.
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Post by grodog on Oct 17, 2017 12:07:34 GMT -5
You could sell covers, continuance and hype and people will still buy it. My experience was always "Well... It has an atmospheric cover...." 30 dollars later. For me the quintessential example of that will always be module H2: The Mines of Bloodstone. The cover totally sold me on that one - not just the atmospheric Keith Parkinson art (which I still think is pretty cool) but even the blurb "a deadly dungeon for character levels 16-18." Alas, every single one of the 48 pages within was total, unmitigated garbage. I remember as a kid trying to rewrite this into something cool and decent that lived up to the promise of the cover and eventually declaring it to be an impossible task and giving up. I think I salvaged some part of H2 by combining it with the Forgotten City/City out of Mind from Gary's Sea of Dust Gord novel, but I can't find my copy to see if I'm remembering that rightly or not :/ They don't really re-write Acererak's history. They write that he explored multiple dimensions, and the 5E adventure is his foot print in the FR. it just happens to be associated with a ruined city in the jungle that is remarkably similar to the Forbidden City on Oerth. What a completely wasted opportunity: if they're going to port S1 into the FR in the first place, then do it right. There's a long history of liches in the FR, and a bunch of cultures that they could have plugged Acererak into that might have at least offered a new spin on the product.... Allan.
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Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2017 12:15:10 GMT -5
No surprise, but I'd convert it back to Greyhawk if I ever decide to run it.
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Post by geneweigel on Oct 17, 2017 19:58:48 GMT -5
I see the whole Forgotten Realms as not a doable thing. Its way too overbaked and not premixed at all. I remember trying to stay hip by reading the official TSR novels then sometime in the lower to mid90's just getting so tired of the banality of it.
I think the Frazetta DEATH DEALER books seemed more OG legit than anything under the banner of FR. Is there anything good there? Its terrible.
The Gygax sellout cowritten Gord short story is lesser than FR though on the scale. Speaking of wasted opportunities, I see the entire FR as a giant wasted opportunity. I think that had Gygax not been attacked by Williams then Ed Greenwood may have been salvaged. But I think his ego got the better of him and he chose to go the low road and not rise to the occasion.
A Gygax led FR would have been a much superior creature but as it is its all glorification of a few lucky articles that just happened to have a cohesive background. I don't know if FR would have been a switch up for Greyhawk. I do think that Blackmoor would have been solid Greyhawk tie-in and more energized with Gary behind it. There would have been no DJ so Necropolis would have fit somewhere in Greyhawk. I believe that FR might have been one or two modules and also might have been standalone classics but they spread themselves too thin with all the overdevelopment/smushing with the Cook/Grubb crew.
If Gary had creative control of the company like he was supposed to instead of this brain dead sabotage money grab bullsht, I'd imagine he would have grabbed DRAGONLANCE by the horns and fucked some life into it.
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