OD&D

[Scott]

3rd session coming up Friday. The party members should start hitting 2nd level after this week. They'll probably make their first foray to the 2nd dungeon level.
It's been fast and fun, but after playing AD&D for so long it would be hard to maintain for a long term campaign, but it's been an enjoyable experiment.

[Scott]

I was reading through some old posts where EGG was detailing the OD&D games he was running. He had the.ayers roll up 2nd or 3rd level characters. I totallly get that now. Starting a group of 1st levels characters has been a slog. They haven't played very well, which doesn't help, but it really doesn't matter. Any die roll could end it. My nephew sis joking the group, so that should help bring the level of play up, but I think we'll be switching editions after the next session.

[GRWelsh]

I think playing older editions explains some things. For example, when Ernie would talk about going into melee a lot with his magic-user, I always wondered how he survived. But in OD&D a fighting man and magic-user aren't that different, stat-wise. Damage with a weapon is d6, right? Hit rolls are the same. The 1st level m-u has 1d6 hit dice and the 1st level fighting man has 1d6+1 hit dice. The only big difference is in AC. But if the m-u has a shield spell, then he might be just as effective in melee as the fighter, or possibly even better. Playing OD&D also helps explain the power creep for player characters in later editions, to make them a bit more survivable and fun to play at 1st level, to take away that 'slogging through it' feeling of "you're basically farmers with rusty weapons, until very gradually, you're not." One of my first and best DMs saw right through this and started player characters at mid-levels. And it may have been because EGG made some provision for this in AD&D DMG Appendix P: CREATING A PARTY ON THE SPUR OF THE MOMENT.

I've always wanted to do what you're doing, play some games across the editions as a survey of how things progressed. But my idea was to start with CHAINMAIL Fantasy Supplement, then move onto OD&D which initially uses the CHAINMAIL combat system, but then switch over to the alternative combat system which is the basis for what we all came to use later, all the while making use the OUTDOOR SURVIVAL gameboard as a local environment map. The next step would be to add in the OD&D Supplements, one by one. OD&D plus all Supplements doesn't look significantly different to me from AD&D, and I've always thought of the MM as a border product that still feels a lot like OD&D plus Supplements... The S1 and G modules have that same borderline feel. When people would say dragons are too weak in 1e, I always think of this borderline period when these dragons would be much more dangerous to OD&D characters who were holdovers from the old days with their d6 hit dice and d6 default weapon damage...

[geneweigel]

Technically, 1d12 can still roll a "1". The rolling of the dice (DMG page 11 methods)is also a factor in AD&D. The biggest difference in CHAINMAIL era and AD&D is probably the accumulation of TSR product's new magic (spells and items).

I think the way to have them exist in real time is to think:

CHAINMAIL: war mode
OD&D: meat grinder mode for playing non-veteran characters roll up on the spot for everything
AD&D: vet characters who want every possible advantage tactically to keep their saga going.

Bringing them back and forth is just character modes that always go forward to AD&D.

[Scott]

I don't think I'll add the supplements to the OD&D game; I want to keep it as distinct as possible.
But the evolution of the game campaign does sound like something to consider in the future.
For now I plan on rotating in other systems too, like WHFRP and Mythus, plus different genres.

[Scott]

Does OD&D state how many milestones the hex when using the Outdoor Survival map?

[Scott]

I found it, 5 miles/hex.

[GRWelsh]

In 1973-1974 EGG, RJK, Ernie, Don Kaye, and others were playtesting D&D which led to EGG listing the Outdoor Survival board as recommended equipment in OD&D when published in 1974, and I've always wondered how exactly it was used. For example, were there any particular castles, towns, dungeons and player character strongholds located on that game board? Was it in proximity to the City of Greyhawk, with that fens being northeast of the city? Or was it just a hex crawl across an unexplored wilderness with sites and encounters randomly determined? A combination of all of the above? If so, it might be fun to plop this down as part of the Cairn Hills geography near Greyhawk. The five (or alternately six) miles per hex scale suggested for mapping endured all the way into AD&D, as zoom-ins for the 30 miles per hex scale such as on the Darlene maps.

[Zenopus]

RJK has indicated more than once that he remembers which particular landmark was Castle Greyhawk on the Outdoor Survival map and that he would write about it, but AFAIK he has not yet published this.
I will see if I can gather up some of his quotes on this.

Here's the first one I came across:

lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2009/03/first-living-campaign.html

When EGG created the one map for City of Greyhawk and the first Castle Greyhawk (12 levels), we had the start of the first campaign in Lake Geneva, 1972. As noted in EGG's introduction to my adventure, Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (WG5), Gary played in a castle/area that I had designed, (N.B., but I had designed no supporting town or city as he had). That was about a month into him starting Greyhawk. So this is the second campaign created in Lake Geneva (late 1972 to early 1973). Both of us were using the Outdoor Survival game map for outdoor adventures then as there was no area map for either of our imagined locations. Gary in fact started in the "mists" when rolling his first PC, Yrag. Later, he was to adventure with other rolled PCs, Mordenkainen, etc., as EGG was very much taken with building his own clan based around what he later named the Circle of Eight in my mileu, which we located on the same OSMap

So Murlynd (Don Kaye) and Terik (Terry Kuntz) had started as PCs in Greyhawk and easily moved between that area and my own. Also note that EGG refers to that area as an "environment," which is indeed a better descriptive, as there was no defined area, per se, just a relative image in our minds due to the position that each castle and environment maintained on the Outdoor Survival map in relation to the City of Greyhawk.

(bolding added by myself for emphasis)

Here's another good quote, from ODD74 on 7/17/10, where Rob describes their original system for using the OS map and also indicates he has recreated a map with the locations indicated:

odd74.proboards.com/post/52947/thread (Rob has since deleted his account)

EGG and I had a system we created for using [the OS Map] as a continuing wilderness map and I actually made notes of that which detailed it and thus the City of Greyhawk's location and its position and placement relative to the other notable locations (Circle of Eight, Castle El Raja Key, Tenser's Castle, Terik's abode, etc., etc.). These have actual locations through the system we used and have been noted on a redone map I have drawn and colorized, which in essence reproduces the main wilderness areas. For the most part, this was a tracking mechanic we employed, so if you continued off the main map where the City of Greyhawk (and others as noted) was located, you appeared at the opposite edge of the "new" map--so if you exited west we lifted up the counter and placed it on the corresponding east edge aligned hex of the same map. Think of it as multiple OS maps abutting each other, continuing on and forever. That was our shared wilderness for quite some time and all throughout the play tests, in fact.

Here's a reference to this project a few years later (11/7/12) on Dragonsfoot:

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1295838#p1295838

I've still got my old Outdoor Survival, btw, with photo-copied b&W's of it and w/notes. I will produce for proposed 2nd work (to be included with other stuff Greyhawkish) a working version of what we did, to include a map in color and redone in composite form. On it I will also have place-notes where the major castles, cities, etc. were placed, as well as external dungeons (Dark Druids, etc, adventure locales described in his or my own stories were located (UoASB and/or unpublished), and where the evil artifacts that I was searching for as Robilar were found (orb) or located (this too in line with my RED BOOK™ notes). All of this dates back to 1973-1975 no less. How are them cookies? Pretty ancient huh? :wink2:

And a more recent (2/17/18) post on the R.o.M. forum where he mentioned continuing work on this project:

ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/21929/thread

On a similar note, the actual regional area map we used visa-ve the Outdoor Survival board configurations and system is being slowly redrawn by me (in between my non-fiction book writing) while noting all of the PC and NPC locations and names, all of the original matter which was for the most part not included in the WoG release. I just received a very LARGE order from BBP and Jon, there,, of mapping papers, hexes and grids of various sizes. It's going to be very large, 24 x 17 square grids, for each OSM map boadr. I will also describe the original system that Gary and I devised for using it as a continuous map.

Earlier this year Rob was writing columns for EnWorld of all places, but since February has been silent there as well as on FB. I can try asking him about this project when he resumes posting again. But at this point it does seem likely to remain vaporware like so many Original Campaign projects.

[Scott]

It might me worth asking Ernie. He may be able to remember a few locations, Tenser’s castle at least.

[Zenopus]

Yes, that would be useful, to see if he remembers anything. I can try on FB.

I also remembered that I asked Gronan about it in his Q&A thread on ODD74 (he's since deleted his account):

odd74.proboards.com/post/203677/thread

I found he had said in an earlier thread that:

Gary absolutely used the Outdoor Survival map for wilderness adventures. Greyhawk was near the center of the left edge, I don't have the map in front of me.

I posted an image of the board and asked whether he meant he meant the only village (buildings on the OS Map per OD&D Vol 3) on the far left edge of the board. Instead of affirming my guess, he instead replied:

I think it was the village just south of the fold in the board in the center panel, but I can't swear to it.

There's no village "just" south of the fold in the center panel, but I assumed at the time he was talking about the one that is about six hexes south of the fold in the center panel. I followed up by asking if this was the location for the village and the castle ruins (which should be Catch Basins aka Ponds per OD&D Vol 3), but he didn't respond.

[Zenopus]

Ernie replied on FB, doesn't remember anything:

Not really as he truly enjoyed at first anyways having us roll on the getting lost from the Outdoor Survival game.

I'm sure Rob remembers it much better since he was running the games.

Here's a quote about it from Gygax on it from his EnWorld Q&A threads where he indicates that OS was used outside the immediate Greyhawk area (which makes me think the City & Castle would be in a single hex on the map):

www.enworld.org/threads/q-a-with-gary-gygax.22566/page-413#post-3832623

I had a rough map of the area around Greyhawk sketched out on an 8.5" x 11" sheet if paper--long since lost. The OS board was for outdoor adventures away from the city. The ponds were castles, and there one's PC or PC party could often engage in some chivalrous combat...or slap an evil knight or mage.

www.enworld.org/threads/q-a-with-gary-gygax.22566/page-433#post-3952304

We used the map, moved counters on it, and rolled for getting lost, so that one was never certain which direction one would head on a turn. Random encounters were used, and the ponds were castles, so there was some jousting rather thanb regular mortal combat.

That's pretty well sums it up--at least all that I can recall after 30 years.

www.enworld.org/threads/q-a-with-gary-gygax.22566/page-319#post-3027526

The OS board made a perfect generic terrain board, the pond areas being either hamlets or castles. With a check for loss of direction and another for encounter, the whole matter was easy and fun for the players adventuring outdoors.

[Scott]

Yeah, Rob always had the better memory. And based on the proximity of the ruins to the city. I would guess they were in the same hex.

[GRWelsh]

Thanks for posting those quotes. They are a tantalizing glimpse into how those guys used to play outdoor adventures... wander around, maybe get lost, have some encounters, find a castle, engage in some jousting, or maybe slap an evil wizard. I love it.

[Scott]

When Doug and Mike (from my current campaign) were kids, they loved the random wilderness crawls. They would ask me to DM every day, and if I ever said I did t have anything ready, they would say, “We can just explore the wilderness”.