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Post by Scott on Mar 7, 2017 7:47:45 GMT -5
One of the things that stood out after looking at the maps in the RJK archive was the frequency of dead ends. It's very hard for my players to accept that a dead end is a dead end, especially dead end steps down. They search and search and search. My cousin's M-U will always burn a charge from his detection wand at a dead end. When I DM I make dead ends automatic wandering monster check points. A 1 means something has come up behind the party.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 7, 2017 8:38:57 GMT -5
///An interesting aside, in the MINECRAFT computer game, the villages, the netherworld (planar) fortresses, the rare mines and very rare strongholds (underground brickwork) have randomly generated features so there are dead end stairs everywhere in the game. You DIG through hoping there is a another passage and its usually nothing.///
If I had a dime for every rpg game session where beating the walls was commonplace...
Universally, I think its when the DM(GM) isn't responsible enough but I've had times when people thought that I was bluffing and dug a hole into nothing.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..."
"Sometimes a swirling vortex into an endless dimension of shimmering lights is just a recorded illusion..."
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 7, 2017 10:16:19 GMT -5
Dead ends are also notable on the sample dungeon in the DMG, the B1 "In Search of the Unknown" map, and that Greyhawk Dungeon Level One that was referred to as the "Shook" map. A big part of early dungeon adventuring seemed to be about confounding or mystifying the players, including with the layout itself. And in a world where almost every dungeon has secret doors, players are going to spend a lot of time looking for secret doors -- especially at dead ends. I've always thought of the in-game rationale being that they are simply incomplete parts of the dungeon, and/or were intended to be used as possible trap-locations but just hadn't had the traps added in yet.
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Post by Scott on Mar 7, 2017 10:36:14 GMT -5
My cousin is adventuring on a partially worked cavern level with lots of dead ends and cave ins and it's driving him nuts.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 7, 2017 11:16:29 GMT -5
SNIPthat Greyhawk Dungeon Level One that was referred to as the "Shook" map. Was that ever verified? Talking to Eric Shook was like, if talking to Rob was difficult because he couldn't grasp what published WORLD OF GREYHAWK by Gary was, firing into the dark for a reclusive bat. I mentioned the city of Greyhawk and Shook said that he still had the "Greyhawk" map. When I said the whole city he seemed confused and then was reluctant to keep talking*. Is that dungeon map actually what he was referring to? Shook seems to be like he was Rob's assistant at one point in the early 80's so I don't know what he would know that was different from Rob. ( * I couldn't talk to him anymore in e-mails and Facebook because everything was going back to politics. Rob and Gary talked politics too but their POVs were at least easier enough to get off of the subject. He just wouldn't let up. So fair warning to those who choose to agitate that hornet's nest. )
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Post by GRWelsh on Mar 7, 2017 11:41:24 GMT -5
It's a mystery inside an enigma wrapped up in annoyingly vague answers. We talked about at length in this thread: doomsdaygames.proboards.com/thread/1208/greyhawk-dungeon-levelBut upon reviewing that thread, I'm still not clear on the source, and there seem to be conflicting statements. It looks like Allan was saying it came from Shook, but Allan would have to confirm that. Also from that thread: it looks like when showed to Rob and Ernie, they didn't recognize it as the dungeon they originally adventured in.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 7, 2017 12:15:47 GMT -5
I wonder if it was going to be toee style? They were aiming for a lot of childish styles with many products. Thats what made me wonder abouf CG as a product. Could you imagine it being sold as a tie-in to toys? Its still a better alternative to the direction Williams took TSR which was essentially no clue without Gary. But with Gary would Shook's maps have been rated "G" to increase sales? I've been putting a lot of thought into TOEE lately and wondering if wasn't ironed yet for a delivery like that.
So in relation to what we're talking about it seems the kiddier D&D like QUEST FOR THE HEARTSTONE (or even DRAGONLANCE) were "train rides" and didn't have a lot of thinking material like dead ends.
My cousin was on a losing streak in 90s where he thought he could show off in front of the "new" (newer) players by running in everywhere and getting things first. What a horrible lesson that was. For everyone actually. He started an earthquake at a dead end to figure out a passage that led nowhere. I think it was by spell. What a disaster. I think we've all made mistakes playing but some people get arrogant and you have to follow through on stupidity. His mercenary costs were a fortune after that and a few people didnt want to play with him around for long time. Bad memories of dead ends.
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Post by grodog on Mar 8, 2017 0:11:18 GMT -5
Yes, assuming you're talking about the page 11 map, Gary? Eric sold that map (via Paul Stormberg), one of five (or six?) that were maps he inked from Castle Greyhawk for Gary. I have some detailed notes from discussions with Paul, Eric, and Rob I can dig up. But that's definitely one of Eric's rendered maps. Also from that thread: it looks like when showed to Rob and Ernie, they didn't recognize it as the dungeon they originally adventured in. As I recall it, Rob didn't immediately recognize the level 1 map, because the version he remembered was from after when Robilar, Tenser, and someone else (Terik??) took over the first level and reshaped it to their own requirements (Ernie should apparently have a copy of that map, if it survived his fire). I don't know whether Ernie's recollection fell into that same category or not, too. IIRC, Scott was the one who asked Ernie about the map, right? Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 8, 2017 8:56:26 GMT -5
Perhaps the dead ends were rounded out to destinations at that point to make it unrecognizable.
In general regarding dead ends, my cousin built a dungeon under the Keep on the Borderlands and my brother connected all the Caves of Chaos with new tunnels. In D&D, it is definitely is implied that structures should be broken and rebuilt in D&D. I don't know if any of that mentality carried over to the undead D&D products in the Gygaxless TSR. There were some break and rebuild books early on ( it seemed they were reacting to complaints over material missing) but they were overwrought and unwieldy (CASTLES boxed set (1990), CAMPAIGN SOURCEBOOK & CATACOMB GUIDE (1990), THE CASTLE GUIDE (1990)Note: the catacomb book features perhaps the nerdiest D&D image in creation under CREATING THE WORLD pg 53). I think that is the days of when the "talkies" went full blown and that brought in a whole wavelength of "preciousness" to the fantasy world where it was "my dungeon" thats "too good for these savages" from the old set and "dungeons are best as a thing of the munchkin past" from the newer set (90's players) which I heard a lot of.
Of course, since the internet revolution of D&D thought, I haven't put too much attention to wrong turns in my campaign. I think that I was never on the "railroad" type play but my freeform "must play now, even randomly" sometimes were rounded out "on the fly/ seat of the pants" so I did have less "dead ends" in that regard. For example, "there is a note on the ground", "there is a thick layer of dust", etc. Just to get things moving.
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