Shadows of Tharizdun

[Scott]

I follow Mike Mearls on Twitter. He's the current lead designer for D&D 5E. He's going to Gary Con and just posted his events. This one caught my attention:

Shadows of Tharizdun
Come play test a set of modifications to the D&D 5e rules designed to capture an old school feel. We'll be playing using a set of house rules dubbed the "Greyhawk variant" of 5e, with the rules modified to match the intent and tone of 1st edition AD&D. Characters provided.

[foster1941]

An intriguing development - not just that they've developed an official set of mods for 5E to make it feel like 1E (it would be nice if they'd produce variant editions of the rulebooks that included these mods and also had 1E-style art) but that they're tying that version to Greyhawk. Perhaps this could be a preliminary step towards IP reunification with the Gygax Estate? Or at least creating hope that "official Greyhawk" might return to the 1E version of the setting and jettison all of the garbage "canon" of the last 30 years?

[Scott]

Ohhhhh, that's a lot to hope for.

[GRWelsh]

I'm not even sure you could pull that off with a Ring of Three Wishes.

But, I do think it is promising that the current lead designer of D&D is at least attempting to reach out to old gamers like us. His heart seems to be in the right place, so I will try to keep an open mind. 5E seems impossibly ambitious to me, by attempting to attract the new and also cater to the old. But that might be the best we can expect, if they aren't actually going to take the leap and produce brand new 1st edition modules. I'll take 1e compatible... that's at least enough to pique my interest.

I was just rereading "Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun" the other day and admiring how Lovecraftian it is... One of EGG's best modules, and an oft-forgotten gem. Extremely tough tactically, with a very creepy atmosphere.

[Scott]

He wrote it over a weekend. I tried running it twice. Both times the party took a beating at the first room, and the survivors opted to not return.

[Scott]

Not sure how familiar you are with 5E, but it's closer to 1E than 3 or 4 was, mechanics-wise. But quick to level and PCs are resistant to death.

[geneweigel]

I don't know what to make of the guy. All I know is that there was this guy that I used to work with everyday for hours and hours had mentioned to me that that guy was in his junior high school D&D club in the 1990's something like a New Age California open learning type school. I didn't even know who the guy was at that time. He went to a reunion came back and mentioned that I came up during a conversation where he said he worked with someone who is a big D&D fan and he was aware of who I was. And that was the end of it. From that, it sounds like he's a 90's generation D&D (Skills, etc.). I think Skill people have a hard time understanding non-Skill play.

[GRWelsh]

"You work with the infamous Wild Bill Hackock?"

[geneweigel]

Yeah, it went something like that.

I don't know if I can wrap my head around some of this new age D&D.

I can't even wrap my head around clear cut miniature-based tabletop shit.

I was in a game shop the other day and they were playing a STAR WARS game and it was way too overwrought. XWING MINIATURES GAME by Fantasy Flight Games. Basically tiny rubber space ship toys and plastic flip counters for telling what direction the ship is facing. Overcomplicated and mediocre was what I was thinking. Each ship unit pack was about $15 apiece with a scenario card. Everything was a simulation to the point where I don't even think tactics applied except card game tactics.

I think that any approach to Tharizdun by WOTC/HASBRO will be done in a way that RETURN TO TOEE handled Tharizdun. I think they had a slew of rubber figures in the D&D line that had Tharizdun as synonymous with FR's "Ghaunadaur" and the Elder Elemental God which was per the RETURN TO TOEE's "riff" as the then GH mouthpiece put it.

[foster1941]

Yeah, it's surely a mistake to get our hopes up to high about this, but I still think that WotC officially acknowledging that 1) the feel of 1E and 5E are sufficiently different that a set of mods to the latter are needed to achieve the former, and 2) that that's something worth doing, counts as a significant philosophical shift in the right direction. From 2E through 4E it was impossible to get fans of the then-current versions to acknowledge that there was any difference between them and 1E except that things had been fixed and improved - "zee game remains zee same!" and all that.

[Scott]

It's not something I'd get my hopes up over, but it was a bit of a nice surprise.

[geneweigel]

Just got a peak yesterday from copies of 4th and 5th edition D&D books (I don't have any).

Here is the Tharizdun entry from the 4th Edition DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE (2008)by James Wyatt:

THARIZDUN
Tharizdun is the chaotic evil god who created the
Abyss. He is not mentioned in the Player’s Handbook or
named in the Monster Manual, because the fact of his
existence is not widely known. A few scattered cults
of demented followers revere him, calling him the
Chained God or the Elder Elemental Eye. Tharizdun
doesn’t speak to his followers, so his commands are
unknown, but his cults teach their members to:

Channel power to the Chained God, so he can
break his chains.

Retrieve lost relics and shrines to the Chained God.

Pursue the obliteration of the world, in anticipation
of the Chained God’s liberation.

Here he is in the 5th Edition PLAYERS HANDBOOK (2014)by Mike Mearls:

DEITIES OF GREYHAWK
  Deity                               Alignment    Suggested Domains    Symbol

Tharizdun, god of eternal darkness     CE           Trickery             Dark spiral or inverted ziggurat

On another note there is an FORGOTTEN REALMS novel SWORD OF THE GODS (2011) by Bruce Cordell that mentions Tharizdun coming to the realms to spread his Elemental Evil.

Its almost like the makers of BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS (1980 low budget SW cash-in) doing RETURN OF THE JEDI in 1983 and saying Han Solo is Darth Vader because they're both from the original STAR WARS movie and Vader wears a mask for this trick with a stand-in because Solo spared Vader's life even though he had full surprise... (O O) Stares blinklessly off into the distance....

[GRWelsh]

Well, to be fair, EGG did leave a lot of things raw and undefined, so as to allow himself (and others) creative freedom in the future.

I think the World of Greyhawk could have benefited from a Theogony penned by EGG. We have a list of gods, and some descriptions of them, but we don't really have a mythology that ties it all together or tells a story. For example, we don't know the relationships of the gods to each other, who did what, and when, and so on... Just a few tidbits in the artifacts and relics section in the DMG, and the god descriptions in Dragon magazines later reprinted in the Greyhawk boxed set, and the Gord stories. I'd love to know what the framework was, in EGG's mind, at the high levels... Who created the multiverse, who or what created the gods, what the relationship is between greater gods and elder elemental gods, how many gods are exalted mortals and which ones are eternal (if any), who imprisoned Tharizdun and when, etc. As it is, I think it is understandable if people get confused and/or just come up with their own explanations for how everything is.

[Scott]

I've sketched a little creation outline. I'll post something in the Greyhawk board.

[geneweigel]

Without straying into religious territory, I usually like to keep big myths to a dull roar and just have random made up little myths that relate to the adventure.

[GRWelsh]

Yeah, the big myths aren't usually relevant at the adventure-level, but it would be nice to know some of that stuff, just to have a framework and some consistency. Like I've always wondered, for example, what Boccob's relationship to the other gods is. He is the Archimage of the Gods, but what does that mean? Does he perform services for the other gods? Does he have some magical ability even other greater gods do not? Did he invent magic, or is he just really adept at using it and understanding it? Has Boccob always been around, or was there a previous Archimage of the Gods? What relation does he and magic have to the structure of the Outer and Inner Planes? How did that structure even come about?

[foster1941]

I love how sketchy and piecemeal the mythology and ancient history of Oerth are - how we pretty much only ever learn about anything when it becomes directly relevant in play. Even if it was an accident of publication history and Gary intended to fill in more detail eventually (or, probably more likely, have Rob, Frank, Len Lakofka, etc. fill it in under his aegis), it feels to me like an invitation for each individual DM to become an active creative participant in the setting, that by virtue of being able to (having to) fill in all that stuff yourself each DM's version of Greyhawk necessarily becomes unique and individualized. In other words, Greyhawk demonstrates the same design-philosophy as AD&D itself - establishing a solid baseline and framework to create a common reference-point for communication and shared experience, but within and around that allowing tremendous room for individual expansion and customization for "advanced" players. Which is why the post-Gary stuff is so tragic (well, that plus the fact that almost all of it is hacky fan-fiction garbage on its face) - because by filling in so many of those areas - the history, the pantheons, even the world-map - and by doing so in the most boringly mundane and uninspiring manner possible, the world feels much smaller and less interesting. Instead of inspiring the reader to explore and create, it just gives you a bunch of boring "canon" detail to have to learn and remember and stick to. We already have the Forgotten Realms (and Krynn, and Mystara, and Glorantha and Tekumel and Middle Earth and hundreds of other settings) for that - Greyhawk, as-published under Gary, presented a different model and approach, and it's a shame that TSR, WotC, and Paizo wrecked it.

Which is why I hope that if WotC does decide to bring Greyhawk back for 5E that they'll also recognize what made it interesting and appealing in the first place and turn back the clock and "de-canonize" the 30 years of cruft that accumulated around and strangled it.

[geneweigel]

This is reminding me of George Carlin:

"Well, it's a MYSTERY..." "Oh. Thank you, Fadder! Mystery? I don't know... what's he talking about? "

Here is a clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZGDKj6GUC0

Seriously, the Boccob religion would most likely be similar to Odin or Hermes

[geneweigel]

I just checked Garycon's website and its an odd assortment D&D saints and sinners on the guest list. Highlights? Terry Kuntz and Allen Hammack:

garycon.com/guests/

Its too bad that its so far or I'd go just for the hell of it.

[Scott]

There's another product just announced that has some re-tread 1e material. dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/tales-yawning-portal