Initiative Thread

[Scott]

Rather than lead that adventure specific module astray, I'll start a thread here.
First think you need to know is the DMG was never finished. It was a mostly finished pile of notes, drafts, ideas, etc. that had been tossed around for years that was so overdue it was finally handed to the editors to do the best they could and get it released. There never was a complete initiative system written and released. Parts of different systems that weren't written to be part of the same system were thrown together into the confusing mess that is 1E initiative. Anybody that thinks they've figured it all out is mistaken, because no such master system was ever presented. There have been some pretty impressive fan attempts made to turn the whole mess into a single workable system, but the reality is that's not what was released.
I take what I like out of the books, info acquired through conversations with Gary, and what works best for me. It's more fluid than set in stone.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Nov 15, 2016 22:21:16 GMT -5 Scott said:

Rather than lead that adventure specific module astray, I'll start a thread here.
First think you need to know is the DMG was never finished. It was a mostly finished pile of notes, drafts, ideas, etc. that had been tossed around for years that was so overdue it was finally handed to the editors to do the best they could and get it released. There never was a complete initiative system written and released. Parts of different systems that weren't written to be part of the same system were thrown together intothe confusing mess that is 1E initiative. Anybody that thinks they've figured it all out is mistaken, because no such master system was ever presented. There have been some pretty impressive fan attempts made to turn the whole mess into a single workable system, but the reality is that's not what was released.
I take what I like out of the books, info acquired through conversations with Gary, and what works best for me. It's more fluid than set in stone.

So do you consider initiative the most incomplete 1E rule system unaddressed by later works such as UA, or what other major incomplete 1E rule systems are of the same order of magnitude as initiative?

[geneweigel]

Its as simple as rolling two dice or flipping a card everything else takes a human judge with no computer. Thats why I don't use skills its too robotic.

[Scott]

Nov 15, 2016 22:38:15 GMT -5 davegibsongreyhawkdm said:

Nov 15, 2016 22:21:16 GMT -5 Scott said:

Rather than lead that adventure specific module astray, I'll start a thread here.
First think you need to know is the DMG was never finished. It was a mostly finished pile of notes, drafts, ideas, etc. that had been tossed around for years that was so overdue it was finally handed to the editors to do the best they could and get it released. There never was a complete initiative system written and released. Parts of different systems that weren't written to be part of the same system were thrown together intothe confusing mess that is 1E initiative. Anybody that thinks they've figured it all out is mistaken, because no such master system was ever presented. There have been some pretty impressive fan attempts made to turn the whole mess into a single workable system, but the reality is that's not what was released.
I take what I like out of the books, info acquired through conversations with Gary, and what works best for me. It's more fluid than set in stone.

So do you consider initiative the most incomplete 1E rule system unaddressed by later works such as UA, or what other major incomplete 1E rule systems are of the same order of magnitude as initiative?

Nothing else stands out like this. Complete surprise is a concept that pops up, but it's never really explained. Monks chance of surprise is based on percentage chances, but how does that work with the pip = a surprise segment basis. Different types of dice, but no thought on how they work when the opponent has special rules based on a different die type? Lots of winging it.

[GRWelsh]

I used to bring this up because I played both rangers and monks back in the 80's. The best way to handle it is to convert different surprise dice to %. Each 16.66% can equate to a d6 pip surprise segment when that applies.

[Scott]

I've done that as well, but what bout this 7th level monk and his 22% chance of being surprised? Now I just wing it on an encounter by encounter basis. The snow leopard encounter, I gave the party a 1 d6 pip chance of not being surprised.

[geneweigel]

There is a lot of worry but I've never played a D&D game without a calculator its the unwritten rule.

There was some AD&D guide to initiative a while ago on some website and it was broken. You roll the dice if the character forgets then thats their fault.

[geneweigel]

I looked on DRAGONSFOOT for that initiative writeup but I can't find it. I haven't been there in a long while so my DF knowledge is shot.

[geneweigel]

Here it is:

idiscepolidellamanticora.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/addict.pdf

[Scott]

I've read a few of those, and they're all working under the delusion that there was a single, coherent initiative system presented, but there never was.

[GRWelsh]

Nov 17, 2016 9:58:42 GMT -5 Scott said:

I've done that as well, but what bout this 7th level monk and his 22% chance of being surprised? Now I just wing it on an encounter by encounter basis. The snow leopard encounter, I gave the party a 1 d6 pip chance of not being surprised.

Just convert everything into bonuses. The default chance to surprise is 33.33%. The monk only has a 22% chance of being surprised, so he basically has a 11.33% bonus against being surprised.

I also think winging it is fine and is the DM's perogative in order to keep things flowing along... EGG often stated he did a lot of winging it himself, and didn't follow all of his own rules as they were written.

[geneweigel]

The biggest flaw is lack of surprise cancellation being mentioned. Its like its automatically as if they were in a infinite backstab universe

[grodog]

A nice summary of surprise appears in Dragon #133.

[davegibsongreyhawkdm]

Nov 17, 2016 10:33:53 GMT -5 grodog said:

A nice summary of surprise appears in Dragon #133.

What does the dragon #133 surprise summary say - I don't have that Dragon issue?

[geneweigel]

The DRAGON article is a chart of percentage conversions and how to figure it out on six-sided dice. Its not anything new but its official to the letter.

Table one is the conversion and table two is where the percent fits on the die:

                                      Surprises on a
       2/6     3/6 4/6     6/8     8/10    5/6     7/8 9/10
Surprised on a (33%) (50%) (67%)  (75%)   (80%)   (83%)   (88%) (90%)
1 in 20 (5%) 5%      22% 39%     47%     52%     55%     60% 62%
1 in 12(8%)     8% 25% 42% 50% 55% 58% 63% 65%
1 in 10(10%)    10% 27% 44% 52% 57% 60% 65% 67%
1 in 8 (13%) 13% 30% 47% 55% 60% 63% 68% 70%
1 in 6 (17%) 17% 33% 50% 59% 64% 67% 72% 74%
2 in 6 (33%) 33% 50% 67% 75% 80% 83% 88% 90%
Notes
Monks use the 2-in-6 (33%) row. Subtract 1% if the monk is 2nd level or ((2% x
(level - 2)) + 1) if 3rd level or greater.
If the encountered creature is silent, add 17% (1 in 6) to the value in Table 1.
If the encountered creature is invisible, add 17% (1 in 6) to the value in Table 1.



Table 2
Surprise Factors
Surprise roll Surprise factor
1-17            1
18-33            2
34-50            3
51-67            4
68-83            5
84-00            6

The text:

Surprise! (DRAG #133 MAY 1988)

by Leigh L. Krehmeyer

Determining who gets the drop on whom
Balin, the fearless svirfneblin, moved
quietly down the corridor. Somewhere
ahead lurked his foe, a drow elf. Balin
carefully edged around a corner and was
suddenly face-to-face with his foe. . . .
Player 1: “Okay, Balin surprises on 9 in
10. Is he surprised?”
Player 2: “Hey, wait a minute! I’ve got a
drow elf who’s only surprised on 1 in 8.
How can Balin surprise my drow on 9 in
10?”
DM: “Well, uh, um. . . ."
With the expansion of player characters
into new racial types and character classes
with unusual surprise values, the timehonored
method of determining surprise
can quickly become a headache for many
DMs. A scan of the Dungeon Masters
Guide (pages 61-62) or the Players Handbook
(pages 102-103) reveals what to do in
those cases where both the surprised
value (How often am I surprised?) and the
surprising value (How often do I surprise
the other guy?) can be expressed using a
six-sided die. However helpful this discussion
may be when a ranger encounters a
wererat, it doesn’t answer the question of
what happens when you have an encounter
between a drow elf and a svirfneblin.
The solution lies in converting die rolls
into decimal percentages. For example, a
“normal” surprise roll is 2 in 6, or approximately
33%. The value for a party that is
surprised on a 1 in 6 is approximately
17%. A reduction value of 17% is constant
in all surprise conditions not using 1d6
rolls; the DMG (page 62) illustrates this by
showing that a 5-in-6 chance to surprise is
reduced to 4 in 6 when the party being
surprised is normally surprised only on a
1 in 6 (4 in 6 = 67%, 3 in 6 = 50%; therefore,
67 - 17 = 50%).
So, if the character who is surprised on
a 1 in 6 has a constant reduction of 17%,
then a character who is surprised on a 1
in 8 should have a constant reduction of
21%. If the svirfneblin surprises normally
on a 9 in 10 (90%), then he would surprise
the drow elf 90 - 21 = 69% of the time.
For those who claim that this number is
too low (after all, Unearthed Arcana does
say that the deep gnomes surprise 90% of
the time), counter with the position that
the drow elf picks up 21% more clues
(sounds, odors, that little prickly feeling on
the back of your neck when someone is
watching, etc.) than the average individual.
For those who say it is too high (since
drow are surprised only on a 1 in 8),
repeat that a svirfneblin normally surprises
90% of the time and that the DMG (page
62) firmly states that a party surprised on
a 1 in 6 has only an additional 17% (1 in 6)
in their favor “and not a 50% better
chance."
Table 1 lists a matrix of surprise conditions.
Since monks (from either the Players
Handbook or Oriental Adventures)
lower their chances of being surprised for
every level above 1st level, they should use
the normal 2-in-6 line and subtract their
surprise bonus from this value. Also, since
the application of silence (as per the
second-level cleric spell silence 15’ radius
or a magical item) or invisibility (by whatever
means) adds an additional 1-in-6
chance of surprising each (as per the
Players Handbook, page 103), characters
using such powers should increase the
values shown in Table 1 by 17% apiece.
If the player rolls less than or equal to the
listed percentage value, his character is
surprised. If both or neither party is surprised,
then the encounter progresses normally.
However, if one of the parties is
surprised, the number of surprise segments
lost to this party must be determined. This is
done by cross-referencing the same roll used
to determine surprise for each party and its
surprise factor using Table 2. The surprised
party subtracts its factor from the surprising
party’s factor. Treat all negative results as
zero.
Consider the following example: Balin
the svirfneblin encounters the drow elf.
Balin is normally surprised on a 1 in 12.
However, the drow, being an elf and not in
metal armor, surprises on a 3 in 6. According
to Table 1, the drow elf has only a 25%
chance of surprising Balin. Likewise, the
elf, who is “normally” surprised on a 1 in
8, has a 70% chance of being surprised by
Balin. The drow rolls 15 and Balin rolls 37.
This means that the drow is surprised.
Checking Table 2, we find that a roll of 15
yields a surprise factor of 1 and a roll of
37 gives a surprise factor of 3. Therefore,
the drow is surprised for 2 (3 - 1) segments.
Of course, this result may be modified
by the PCs’ dexterity reaction scores,
as per page 11 of the Players Handbook.
Changing surprise values from straight
fractions of die rolls to percentages does
cost a little in terms of complete accuracy.
However, it also allows the DM to handle
better those surprise conditions which
cannot be translated into fractions of 1d6
without compromising game play. This
enables a DM to tailor surprise conditions
and encounters to the circumstances, and
not fudge the surprise factors.

[foster1941]

There's a passage in the DMG (in the Morale section, IIRC) where it outlines a complicated system with a big list of detailed modifiers and such, but then in a footnote says something to the effect of "you are encouraged to follow the above closely when starting out, but as you gain more experience you will eventually be able to substitute your own judgment for this system." I've always felt that note applied to almost everything in the book - it presents a bunch of detailed and complex rules and sub-systems to give the fledgling DM a feel for how things are supposed to work, the kinds of things should be considered as factors, how much granularity is appropriate, and so on, but the intent is always that once you've got the holistic idea and internalized the concepts and intuitively grasp the intended feel, that you're not supposed to even try to follow all of those rules exactly (and, in fact, in a lot of cases you can't even if you want to, because they're incomplete or contradictory as presented) and are supposed to make your own judgment calls based on what feels appropriate.

[foster1941]

Here's the quote, from DMG p. 37:

(If you are certain of your DM
ability, most of these factors should be apparent without actually checking
them out, simply by empathizing with the character or group in
question, and having them act accordingly. Until you are absolutely
certain, however, it is urged that you use these tables.)

[geneweigel]

Without that DMG quote in mind I did have an interaction with Gary along similar lines. I was talking about how I DM with the POV of the players but keep it separate and he nominally agreed with the idea. I think this applies to ruling. Ruling (without skills of course! ) how a player wins over a hostile "civ" type big NPC in a peaceful environ is something that is better with an experienced DM. I think that RPGers talk about the curve of learning an RPG but I think with AD&D there is no curve it just goes on infinitely. Why? Because its THE rpg. D&D the original game and Gygax's vision of it (AD&D) at its apex. There is always going to be people interested in the rules for RPGs but AD&D isn't a programmed keyboard its more like a guitar.