foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
|
Post by foster1941 on Mar 29, 2018 12:23:40 GMT -5
Having just looked at Paul Stormberg's DF post, I pretty much agree with his interpretation of the first three rows - those symbols closely match the WOG folio and the meaning seems straightforward enough:
REPEATED HOLY AND GOOD WARNING
PRIVATE KEY TO INFERNAL PRISON HOUSE
OPPOSED TO DEMONIC POWERS OF DEATH AND POSSESSION - GREAT EVIL!
The fourth row I feel like would make more sense if the "danger" symbol (line with three slashes) was changed to "elemental" (line with four slashes), and I disagree with Stormberg's assertion that an "insanity" rune tilted backwards means "sleeping" (what?). More likely it was just misdrawn and still means insanity. Then the meaning might be something like:
ELEMENTAL DARKNESS - HUGE INSANITY - IN THE EARTH
(i.e. continuing the description of what's being held in the private prison)
The first rune on the last row is still a mystery because there is no ankh symbol in the WOG folio. Presumably the artist drew it based on something that wasn't clear but maybe looked kind of close? Maybe the symbol for brass (which is sort of like an ankh with two slashes instead of one)? Then the meaning might be something like
HOLY WARNING IN BRASS
Referring to the bronze doors (note that there is no rune for bronze in the folio)?
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 29, 2018 13:20:16 GMT -5
Having just looked at Paul Stormberg's DF post, I pretty much agree with his interpretation of the first three rows - those symbols closely match the WOG folio and the meaning seems straightforward enough: REPEATED HOLY AND GOOD WARNING PRIVATE KEY TO INFERNAL PRISON HOUSE OPPOSED TO DEMONIC POWERS OF DEATH AND POSSESSION - GREAT EVIL! The fourth row I feel like would make more sense if the "danger" symbol (line with three slashes) was changed to "elemental" (line with four slashes), and I disagree with Stormberg's assertion that an "insanity" rune tilted backwards means "sleeping" (what?). More likely it was just misdrawn and still means insanity. Then the meaning might be something like: ELEMENTAL DARKNESS - HUGE INSANITY - IN THE EARTH (i.e. continuing the description of what's being held in the private prison) The first rune on the last row is still a mystery because there is no ankh symbol in the WOG folio. Presumably the artist drew it based on something that wasn't clear but maybe looked kind of close? Maybe the symbol for brass (which is sort of like an ankh with two slashes instead of one)? Then the meaning might be something like HOLY WARNING IN BRASS Referring to the bronze doors (note that there is no rune for bronze in the folio)? The folio's insanity and giant/huge runes are similar, the orientation of the middle rune of the set of three is nearly straight upright, as per the orientation of the giant/huge rune, yet none of these three runes has the slightly open "p" of the giant/huge rune? The two outside runes of the set of three are approximately parallel and rotated counter-clockwise ninety degrees from the insanity rune orientation? Maybe the whole of the temple gates rune set is meant to be read rotated ninety degrees clockwise?? Or better yet rotated and read in a wheel or wheel within a wheel sequence? There should be eight compass groupings of three = 24 runes surrounding the demoniac central rune. That means one of the runes is a grouping of two runes, which I think would be the air and strength rune that is combined. 25 makes a significant tantric number as well, which would be read as 5 x 5 grid, with an outer wheel of sixteen, surrounding an inner wheel of eight, which in turn surrounds a central one.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 29, 2018 13:34:13 GMT -5
Having just looked at Paul Stormberg's DF post, I pretty much agree with his interpretation of the first three rows - those symbols closely match the WOG folio and the meaning seems straightforward enough: REPEATED HOLY AND GOOD WARNING PRIVATE KEY TO INFERNAL PRISON HOUSE OPPOSED TO DEMONIC POWERS OF DEATH AND POSSESSION - GREAT EVIL! The fourth row I feel like would make more sense if the "danger" symbol (line with three slashes) was changed to "elemental" (line with four slashes), and I disagree with Stormberg's assertion that an "insanity" rune tilted backwards means "sleeping" (what?). More likely it was just misdrawn and still means insanity. Then the meaning might be something like: ELEMENTAL DARKNESS - HUGE INSANITY - IN THE EARTH (i.e. continuing the description of what's being held in the private prison) The first rune on the last row is still a mystery because there is no ankh symbol in the WOG folio. Presumably the artist drew it based on something that wasn't clear but maybe looked kind of close? Maybe the symbol for brass (which is sort of like an ankh with two slashes instead of one)? Then the meaning might be something like HOLY WARNING IN BRASS Referring to the bronze doors (note that there is no rune for bronze in the folio)? The folio's insanity and giant/huge runes are similar, the orientation of the middle rune of the set of three is nearly straight upright, as per the orientation of the giant/huge rune, yet none of these three runes has the slightly open "p" of the giant/huge rune? The two outside runes of the set of three are approximately parallel and rotated counter-clockwise ninety degrees from the insanity rune orientation? Maybe the whole of the temple gates rune set is meant to be read rotated ninety degrees clockwise?? Or better yet rotated and read in a wheel or wheel within a wheel sequence? There should be eight compass groupings of three = 24 runes surrounding the demoniac central rune. That means one of the runes is a grouping of two runes, which I think would be the air and strength rune that is combined. 25 makes a significant tantric number as well, which would be read as 5 x 5 grid, with an outer wheel of sixteen, surrounding an inner wheel of eight, which in turn surrounds a central one. If instead this is treated as 24 runes, the tantric reading would indicate 24 elders of 12 astrological/zodiac tribes, with a male and female elder archetype per each tribe? An intense relationship between the Four Worlds = four "stones" building 24 houses.
|
|
|
Post by davegibsongreyhawkdm on Mar 29, 2018 13:42:48 GMT -5
Tantric 24 would put the Druid of the Grove {VOH location #24}, agent of The Druids of Gnarley Wood in view, and it makes fitting undercover female Druid Kella within the temple.
|
|
foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
|
Post by foster1941 on Mar 30, 2018 11:29:14 GMT -5
I want to redraw the T1-4 door glyphs using the runes from the boxed set instead of the folio (since in my games the box has "canonical precedence") - has anybody else already done this?
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Mar 30, 2018 12:41:52 GMT -5
Nope, but I will next time I run it.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Mar 30, 2018 12:53:58 GMT -5
I'm working on a double version right now.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Mar 30, 2018 14:36:01 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 11, 2022 16:34:45 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Nov 11, 2022 17:25:24 GMT -5
I did a similar A/B comparison of the runes from Folio vs. Boxed set to Gene, just grouped them in a different way to focus on runes that change substantially across both sources: greyhawkonline.com/grodog/temp/gh_runes.pdf I’ve also added a number of runes for specific planes, demon princes, and other concepts over the years. Probably time for another update 🙂 Allan.
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Nov 11, 2022 18:39:07 GMT -5
I've been using the portentous runes & glyphs in my AD&D campaign. They are somewhat well known as a way to warn or tip off other adventurers by writing them in chalk, carving in wood, etc. I've also been using clerical glyphs of warding, which I treat as something completely different (a spell, can't normally be seen, etc.). I haven't yet decided if the portentous runes & glyphs are Flan or not... I'll probably just leave them undefined as 'ancient beyond memory.'
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Feb 5, 2024 12:44:07 GMT -5
I haven't yet decided if the portentous runes & glyphs are Flan or not... I'll probably just leave them undefined as 'ancient beyond memory.' The titling of the section in the Folio as “ Portentous Runes and Glyphs” caught my eye this morning, and suggests that they may also be received as part of divinations and omens, and might perhaps be divine/infernal in origin too. The introductory text also alludes to them being “common in the area” (exactly what area?—all of the Flanaess, around Greyhawk and the Cairn Hills tombs, etc.?), being found in “eldritch writings and ancient buildings” too, and characterizes them as “runes of power” (which I always associated with the various power words spells). As usual, Gary squeezes a lot of DM-useful gameplay ambiguity into a few words! Allan.
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Feb 6, 2024 15:00:13 GMT -5
I've always assumed portentous to mean "that which portends" or presages, foreshadows, or indicates in advance. So, the runes and glyphs are used as signs or warnings in the area which in this context means the Flanaess. They aren't magical themselves but can refer to magical things. They could be used in divinations and omens, for sure, such as a rune appearing to a priest in a dream, birds flying in a configuration, etc. I've decided that they are very ancient, but over time have been adopted by adventurers and explorers to communicate or leave hints for each other. So, they function as a sort of written "Adventurers' Cant" just as thieves' have their own symbols known to each other, but the Portentous Runes & Glyphs are more broadly known. Several of them seem to be based upon or inspired by the Elder Futhark, an runic alphabet from Northern Europe.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 9, 2024 23:47:37 GMT -5
From DMG (1979) under Glyph of Warding spell notes:
In S1 TOMB OF HORRORS (1979) glyphs spell the demi-lich Acererak's name:
1979 T1 VILLAGE OF HOMMLET:
A2 SECRET OF THE SLAVERS STOCKADE (1981) mentions specific glyphs in action:
Intro from 1980 Folio repeated exactly in 1983 boxed set:
S4 LOST CAVERNS OF TSOJCANTH (1982) features glyphs as written out warnings:
WG4 FORGOTTEN TEMPLE O FTHARIZDUN (1982) has some areas in the temple with glyphs:
Glyphs as warnings to be read with read magic:
And speaking the glyph here simply opens:
This glyph (and sigil) has an overload of power:
EX2 THE LAND BEYOND THE MAGIC MIRROR (1983) has glyphs readable with a read languages spell:
T1-4 TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL (1985) on dungeon level 3, Iuz and Zuggtmoy's glyphs have powers:
Their power is also visible in the glyphs that are on the animated armor that is immune to magic in another area of level 3:
Also the entrance to the nodes are called "glyphs" multiple times.
In WG6 ISLE OF THE APE (1985) the entrance to the demi-plane is through glyphs in Tenser's tale:
|
|
|
Post by GRWelsh on Feb 11, 2024 8:19:30 GMT -5
Thanks Gene. That's quite the survey! Obviously, the concept of glyphs was quite persistent in EGG's imagination over time. It would seem that some are magical and some are not. Some can be read only with read magic, while others can be read using the comprehend languages spell, perhaps the thief's ability to read languages, or even simply knowledge of that ancient language such as a sage may have. Some can be used as letters of an alphabet (such as to spell out a 'Acererak' or a poem made up of quatrains) while others are words unto themselves (like fire, cold, energy, drain, death, terror, etc.). I often get the impression EGG wanted to do more with the concepts of glyphs, sigils, runes, etc.
That LAMENT FOR LOST THARIZDUN is very Lovecraftian, isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 11, 2024 16:26:13 GMT -5
I just skimmed the surface of the adventures using "glyph" but I'm sure he detailed something somewhere.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 11, 2024 17:42:44 GMT -5
Teleporter in G3 HALL O FTHE FIRE GIANT KING (1978) has glyphs and sigils interchangeably: The Temple of Evil Chaos from B2 KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS (1980) has "signs and sigils" on seats: I just noticed the "Zebbed" 1981 version of B2 features an asterisk after "sigil" meaning to look for the word in the glossary and it isn't in my version of the glossary. The original 1980 version of B2 has no asterisk next to it even though other words are asterisked. Every new day opens another "curse of Zeb"... Drelnza's resting place in S4 LOST CAVERNS OF TSOJCANTH (1982): In the dungeon of WG4 FORGOTTEN TEMPLE OF THARIZDUN (1982) mentions sigils: In WG5 MORDENKAINEN'S FANTASTIC ADVENTURE (1984) Mordenkainen's scroll mentions sigils: T1-4 TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL (1985) mentions sigils as an item but are not mentioned being of value in the description:
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Feb 12, 2024 12:21:47 GMT -5
Indeed, as usual you are a font of on-target quotations, Gene! Many thanks I often get the impression EGG wanted to do more with the concepts of glyphs, sigils, runes, etc. Yes, Erase suggests this, as do the varied effects of glyphs-related-protection spells on the objects themselves—some destroying the object (useful if it protects messages for specific individuals or military intelligence) while others do not. I have the concepts for two more glyph-related spells partially inspired by DiTillio’s article, that allow a caster to hold glyph (bypass it without removing it), and steal glyph (to remove a glyph without triggering it, and keep it intact to transfer to elsewhere). Could be a fun article to work these up alongside the expanded GH runes, and some additional glyphs work done over on DF. That LAMENT FOR LOST THARIZDUN is very Lovecraftian, isn't it? I began to draft text for this many moons ago, but didn’t get terribly far. Allan.
|
|
|
Post by geneweigel on Feb 12, 2024 12:57:09 GMT -5
Indeed, as usual you are a font of on-target quotations, Gene! Many thanks Just "B2 on B2in' on"...
|
|