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Post by geneweigel on Jun 14, 2016 18:00:31 GMT -5
Heh, in a EN WORLD THREAD linked in another thread today there is a good example of Gygax Q&A paradox. Gary is unaware that a poster is unaware that Gary invented psionics. So Gary mentions that he (like every other person in the universe) didn't use psionics for the mind flayer but rather a stun effect for the mind flayer. And in actuality everything said is true but at the same time not perceived right. In STRATEGIC REVIEW #1 under the mind flayer it has the whole psionic system for psionic versus non-psionics almost exactly (one number is off) as it would be in his writing of it in ELDRITCH WIZARDRY and his writing of it in PHB/DMG as a plain stun effect. The anti-psionic notion, I believe, is based on it being too complex ( just like CHAINMAIL players looking at AD&D as too cumbersome) for inclusion at the table which was later fortified by it not being included in 2E until 2 years and then only after the devils/demons were reinserted out of necessity. I think that outer planars eventually, campaign-wise, need to utilize psionics for an "THE EXORCIST" type possession so NPC-wise at the very least its a good reference or guideline.
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 7:41:40 GMT -5
I don't know if it's too complex, it's clunky. I think it needed more development. I've wanted to take a look at how he handled it in later games and back port the improvements, but I haven't bothered yet. The combat is the clunky part. It's basically always going to be the combatant with the higher starting psionic strength that wins. The disciplines are pretty cool.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2016 8:07:47 GMT -5
Here are some PSI enigmas from POLYHEDRON when they claimed Gary was on hand to answer:
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2016 8:31:24 GMT -5
Note. In the 2E version when they finally reinserted psionics in the revised psionics system published in THE COMPLETE PSIONICS HANDBOOK (1991) energy control is still running wild with a different name:
here is the 1978 AD&D PHB version:
and the OD&D version in ELDRITCH WIZARDRY (1976)for reference:
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2016 9:10:58 GMT -5
I don't know if it's too complex, it's clunky. I think it needed more development. I've wanted to take a look at how he handled it in later games and back port the improvements, but I haven't bothered yet. The combat is the clunky part. It's basically always going to be the combatant with the higher starting psionic strength that wins. The disciplines are pretty cool. In LEJENDARY ADVENTURES the "Rogue" order is the only one that gets psychogenic ability at the ultimate rank (AD&D equivalent "name level") but in LA there is the "Unordered Avatar" where you choose the abilities of your avatar. The LA PSYCHOGENIC POWER listing: ABILITY ASSUMPTION ALTER VIBRATIONS AMNESIA INDUCEMENT APPORT & TELEPORT ARCANE UNDERSTANDING CHARISMATIC CHARM CREATE CONTENTMENT EMPATHIC CONFUSION FREEWILL FEEDING LIFEFORM LEVITATION MATERIAL SENSITIVITY MENTAL UPLIFT MIND OVER MATTER NICTOSCOPY OBJECT LEVITATION PARAUDIAL SENSE PARASCOPIC SENSE PARASCOPIC SCRYING POWER SENSING PREMONITION SELF LEVITATION SELF TELPORTATION SENSORY ACUITY SIXTH SIGHT SPIRIT BARRIR SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION TELEPORT ANOTHER THOUGHT INSINUATION THOUGHT READING UNREADABLE MIND The casting of these go up as a percentage in the general Psychogenic ability which you get points to distribute for when you get to the next rank which is the same for all the orders and those with extraordinary abilities. The dice roll is modified situationally for all "caster types" with extraordinary abilities.
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 10:43:11 GMT -5
There's a DJ version too, but it's the DJ version, so potentially very complex.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2016 11:41:04 GMT -5
For some perspective on the LA psionic here are the "orders" which are the equivalent of "classess" in AD&D:
Demonurge - Sorcery, Tricks, Arcana, Luck Desperado - Stealing,Urbane, Evaluation, Scrutiny Ecclesiastic -Theurgy, Scrutiny, Physique, Learning Elementalist - Geourgy, Arcana, Pantology, Ranging (Enchantment at 1st Rank which is name level in AD&D) Forester - Hunt, Weapons, Archery, Rustic Jongleur - Minstrelsy, Pretense, Physique, Luck Mage - Enchantment , Arcana, Learning, Metallurgy Mariner - Waterfaring, Commerce, Weapons, Archery Noble - Chivalry, Weapons, Hunt, Physique Outlaw - Waylaying, Ranging, Archery, Weapons Rogue - Pretense, Weapons, Stealth, Tricks (Psychogenic at 1st Rank which is name level in AD&D) Soldier - Weapons, Planning, Ranging, Physique Warlock - Necrourgy, Arcana, Luck, Pantology
Sorry, I wrote "Thief" for "Rogue" in the other post[I'll fix]. (I have the book marked up for comparative AD&D abilities analysis.)
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2016 11:43:54 GMT -5
The bold are the extraordinary abilities that have spell-like function and "Grades" the equivalent of "levels" in AD&D. The psychogenic is the only one without "grades". So its very similar to D&D/AD&D's layout of psionics.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 15, 2016 12:09:03 GMT -5
The "defenders always automatically throw up the best defense mode" rule from the DMG is a lame and pretty much ensures the stronger character will always win in psychic combat. It works better as a rock-paper-scissors sort of thing where attack and defense modes are chosen without knowing what the other party is choosing (because some defense modes are better against some attack modes, and vice versa). It should also be possible to catch someone by surprise (or in the middle of some other activity) and attack them with no defense - and characters who want to maintain preventative defense modes should have to pay for it - the number of points (i.e. 1 for Mind Blank, 2 for Thought Shield, etc.) per turn it's maintained, and the character can't use any other psionic abilities or spells while it's up.
Other than that, I feel like psionics should be more common but weaker - that most characters should have some amount of psychic potential and perhaps a minor psychic ability of about the effectiveness level of the knacks and quirks from DJ and LA (e.g. the character has a "danger sense" that allows a +1 on surprise rolls up to 3 times a day, or some such), but in order to improve and enhance it requires extra training (finding a teacher, investing considerable time and money, possibly incurring an XP penalty) so that most characters won't consider it worth the bother.
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Post by geneweigel on Jun 15, 2016 12:32:24 GMT -5
I recall some guy saying that they (DM and players) were abusing psionics in an aggressive game as hearsay in 1982 other than that most people that I dealt with just put it off as unplayable. I didn't even use the psionics screen except for cover 98% of the time. The 2% was usually for the ultra-players with the air tight summoning and planar travel. Its kind of dormant in D&D almost like an IN CASE OF EMERGENCY BREAK GLASS for active players but non-existent for "JIM LUNCHPAIL THE BARD", "JOE SIXPACK THE RANGER" and "JANIE DESKJOCKEY THE ROUGE (SIC)" type players.
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 14:10:49 GMT -5
The "defenders always automatically throw up the best defense mode" rule from the DMG is a lame and pretty much ensures the stronger character will always win in psychic combat. That is my biggest complaints with the system. And as a result, if you don't fudge the rolls, psionic ability is almost a death sentence for the PC. Since almost every psionic encounter will be with a being with a lot more psionic points, the PC will take a psionic beat down every encounter.
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 14:11:54 GMT -5
That's a good collection of Psionic Q&A, Gene.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 15, 2016 14:55:52 GMT -5
The "defenders always automatically throw up the best defense mode" rule from the DMG is a lame and pretty much ensures the stronger character will always win in psychic combat. That is my biggest complaints with the system. And as a result, if you don't fudge the rolls, psionic ability is almost a death sentence for the PC. Since almost every psionic encounter will be with a being with a lot more psionic points, the PC will take a psionic beat down every encounter. That's true. Most psionicaly-endowed characters are likely to have a psionic strength score around 60-70 (based on d% roll + stat-based bonuses), which is lower than just about any psionically-endowed monster (but note that the psionic strength values in the MM are screwy compared to Eldritch Wizardry: some are too high, some too low; my "Companion" includes revised values that more closely match those in EW), and the score never improves - the PH mentions that magic items can enhance it, but I don't recall there actually being any such items in the books. Plus a d% roll to determine the strength total feels like way too large and random of a spread - a character with 5 psionic strength points is totally worthless, and one with 150+ is ridiculously powerful right out of the gate. It'd probably be better to have psionic strength points be more like hit points - less random, starting low and increasing as the character gains levels.
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 15:08:58 GMT -5
Oh, that's right, I forgot about the inconsistent way psionic strength was ported over from the EW to MM. I meant to update the numbers, but I'll be happy to reap the benefits of your efforts.
Doesn't a helm of telepathy give you a small boost?
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 15, 2016 15:14:26 GMT -5
It also probably makes sense to add some more lower-powered (i.e psionic strength under 100) psionic monsters.
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foster1941
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 15, 2016 15:15:57 GMT -5
Doesn't a helm of telepathy give you a small boost? So it does (+40 points). I'd forgotten about that. Are there any others I'm overlooking?
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 15:16:30 GMT -5
When I was way younger, making that psionic roll was a big part of the PC creation process. As little munchkins we wanted any advantage we could get. I can only remember 2 characters ever getting it, but I don't have any memories of how it played out in the games. I can't remember ever having a psionic PC of my own.
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Post by Scott on Jun 15, 2016 15:17:30 GMT -5
Doesn't a helm of telepathy give you a small boost? So it does (+40 points). I'd forgotten about that. Are there any others I'm overlooking? That one just popped into my head for some reason. Nothing else does.
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Post by GRWelsh on Jun 15, 2016 15:23:12 GMT -5
Have you guys ever read HIERO'S JOURNEY by Sterling Lanier?
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foster1941
Warlock
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Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 15, 2016 15:30:20 GMT -5
So it does (+40 points). I'd forgotten about that. Are there any others I'm overlooking? That one just popped into my head for some reason. Nothing else does. Oh yeah, dull gray IOUN stones also grant +10 per stone, up to a maximum of +50
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