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Post by Scott on Mar 31, 2016 9:11:56 GMT -5
What have you done with the fabled Jewel of the Flanaess? Detailed certain buildings? NPCs? Adventures, etc?
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 9:45:20 GMT -5
After the mapping with Gary schtick, I don't think I put anymore energy towards it.
The thieves' guild had a lot of activity so that has a skyscraper-like tower and I have map of my version of a Green Dragon Inn.
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Post by Scott on Mar 31, 2016 10:22:46 GMT -5
I use the Green Dragon Inn as presented in Yggsburgh, but I've changed the names. I have also taken the Outs Inn and placed outside the south of the city and re-named it the Grey Run Inn. I added another inn outside of Lordsgate called the Last Call Tavern. It's a rougher establishment that is popular with adventurers exploring the Dungeons. I use the Striped Mage from Yggsburgh, but changed the names. I've come up with some details for the churches of St. Cuthbert and Pelor. That's about it off the top of my head.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 11:20:59 GMT -5
I can't find the Inn map its got to be stuck in something. I had it in the "mass grave folder" because that is where I had the World of Greyhawk campaign "die" in 1997 and many characters and NPCs, who were there for the birthday of a popular hireling, didn't make it out.
Anyway here is the transition of the Thieves' Guild. Left is 1983 map of "The City" which I recycled as "Greyhawk" in late 80's early 90's.. Middle is researched location of Thieves' Guild from Gord series for mid-90's reboot to "actual" Greyhawk. Then right is the return to "The City" in the early 2000's with all the shit piled into GHC in both prior incarnations.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 11:22:14 GMT -5
Oops! Here is the maps:
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 11:23:35 GMT -5
The Thieves' Guild on the old map is lower right corner tower
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Post by Scott on Mar 31, 2016 14:15:32 GMT -5
Going from memory, isn't Greyhawk like 6-7 miles north to south?
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Post by Scott on Mar 31, 2016 14:37:26 GMT -5
I found the map. The ruins are only 2-3 miles from the city, but from what part of the city? Depending on where you're staying, you could tack on 7 miles of travel. That could make a huge difference when exploring the Ruins. The nearest quarter would be stacked with adventurers. I placed the castle 2-3 miles northeast of Lordsgate. Gary, you may want to relocate Fleak's base of operations.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 15:23:01 GMT -5
Yes, about 7 miles North to South but the 1983 non-Greyhawk city that I did was only about a mile and half from top to bottom so I maintained the size as well as the size of the surrounding lands for the rebooted campaign.
They were glad to have the mountains back. All the surrounding mountains have denizens that I thought would fit in a fantasy world over "D&D correct" so I restored them as well.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 31, 2016 17:48:12 GMT -5
Did Gary ever declare a revised population figure for the version of Greyhawk City portrayed in the novels? Because from the way its described (with teeming quasi-Victorian slums and such) and that City of Hawks map showing it being several miles across it feels like the population should be several hundred thousand people. By contrast the 58,000 figure listed in the folio and 83 box is about half the size of the town I grew up in (and, spread across the area of the City of Hawks map, would have about the same population density, which couldn't be even remotely described as teeming).
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 19:57:27 GMT -5
Compare all the city populations of the gazetteer then factor in individual and group liberties for the idea of a Free City of any alignment which is accounted for by the remarks made at the beginning of AN OVERVIEW OF POLITICAL DIVISIONS under population:
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That would be Gary's answer.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 31, 2016 20:08:50 GMT -5
Got it. So 58,000 represents something like the number of "taxpayers" - permanent, law-abiding, mundane residents - and when you include those other groups the actual number of people in the city at any given time is likely much higher - the people in the foreign quarter mostly aren't included, the people in the river quarter mostly aren't included, the people in the thieves' and beggars' quarters mostly aren't included, the garrison isn't included, all the transient adventurer-types aren't included, etc. I can live with that answer.
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Post by geneweigel on Mar 31, 2016 20:47:03 GMT -5
The University Quarter is a separate entity as well as the Enclave.
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Post by Scott on Apr 1, 2016 7:36:47 GMT -5
How much depth do you put into your town time? Do you do a lot of between adventure role playing in town? Are there a lot of recurring NPCs the party knows? Do the PCs have regular trainers/mentors?
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 1, 2016 8:53:12 GMT -5
A lot. I had a requirement for town adventure because of the demand. Everyone has a mentor and/or patron. Most people would want their own from another land. So there is sense of they'll come around to the city anyway. How hard is it to exist for the visiting trainers when all you need is big money that adventure types have in spades, etc., etc., etc.? There is the archmage, who I started as an alternate earth Gary that is until I met the real Gary who wasn't anything like this guy, who usually gets them involved in various missions and wars. Hirelings are probably the immediate demand. My city has lesser class types that aren't adventurers and are thus more effective e.g. thieves who can't climb a building or wield a sword but just pickpockets, etc.
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Post by grodog on Apr 1, 2016 14:35:33 GMT -5
Got it. So 58,000 represents something like the number of "taxpayers" I thought it was a bit more narrow, and represented able-bodied male humans able to be levied in times of war. Doesn't count women and children (or the rest of the transients you guys already mentioned, which, in a city like Greyhawk, could be a very significant percentage of the population). Ah, here's probably what I'm thinking of, from the folio page 4: I guess I always read that statement as an implied addition: 58,000 x .2 = 11,600 able-bodied males, and 5800 men-at-arms, which in my head I was adding to the base of 58,000, but clearly that doesn't follow the stated text. C'est la vie Allan. PS - On that same page are movement rates I'll now have to go back to compare to the DMG, at some point....
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 1, 2016 15:54:37 GMT -5
I represent all gods in my main city even though they aren't commonly worshipped. I have several pantheons and a few gods of unknown pantheons. There is a common ultra-pantheon because of the city's openness but thats where the resemblance to D&D gets thrown out the window. There are different groups who worship the same god in different ways. Its not just alignment its more like tradition.
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Post by Scott on Apr 1, 2016 16:38:57 GMT -5
Yes, I think there's much more to it than alignment, even for clerics. I think the alignment lock was made official in D&Dg, but I've always ignored it.
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Post by Scott on Apr 1, 2016 16:56:55 GMT -5
In my WoG St. Cuthbert was a cleric of Rao, which ends up helping nicely with the whole Hommlet, Veluna, Cuthbert thing. But Rao has followers from a wide range of alignments. St Cuthbert is only a few ticks away from LN. In my campaign Law is more important to Cuthbert than to Rao, so his followers would probably be LG or LN. Zagyg is another one where alignment is more important. Melf, who is NG, started out as a follower of Celestian, who is N (g) I think, and switched to Zagyg. Later Zagyg judged him as not chaotic and stripped him of an artifact, and Melf went back to Celestian.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 2, 2016 18:41:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I have it set up moreso than St Cuthbert whereas he has different suborders my gods have different religions and temples for the same god.
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