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Post by Scott on Feb 21, 2016 11:09:00 GMT -5
Allan wrote: Allan, would you be willing to share these? Yes, I would be interested in seeing those too.
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Post by grodog on Feb 22, 2016 23:31:10 GMT -5
I should have these saved, will just need to confirm that they're not on one of the bad external HDs. I've been meaning to build the "everything we've seen about Castle Greyhawk thus far" page for awhile now....
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Post by Scott on Feb 23, 2016 9:08:52 GMT -5
Thanks, Allan.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2016 10:14:53 GMT -5
I did a keyed, cleaned up and stylized version of the Level One map from the linked presentation above if anybody wants to guess whats what. I put number one as what looks like the Gord stairwell and number 20 looks like the road to the Black Reservoir:
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 13, 2016 12:27:45 GMT -5
I still don't believe that is the "real" level one map that was actually used in play c. 1972, but rather very strongly suspect it's a reimagined version for purposes of commercial publication based on the second/expanded version of the castle. That it's so close to the Castle Zagyg (i.e. reimagined, commercially-published) version supports rather than refutes that view IMO. We know that Gary used a different level one map in his "retro OD&D" games at cons in the 2000s - we've seen an over-the-shoulder photo of it and one of the ENWorld guys posted a map he'd drawn during a session that lines up with the over-the-shoulder map - and at the time he was claiming that was "the original dungeon from 1972." More recently Paul Stormberg has run sessions at cons using that same map (corroborated again by comparing player-maps from those sessions to the over-the-shoulder photo) and also claiming it to be the original version of the dungeons. We discussed this in pretty much detail here: knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6981&start=105 a couple years ago. The only thing that argues in favor of this map being the original and the "con" map being a later revision is that this map is SO simplistic and, frankly, looks kind of like something somebody who was doing this for the first time would draw, while the denser, more complex "con" map looks more like something somebody who has more experience with the game would draw - someone who's learned from play that clusters of nested rooms and lots of doors make for more fun and varied play than long straight-line hallways to nowhere.
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Post by Scott on Apr 13, 2016 13:11:07 GMT -5
What I heard was that the CZ version wasn't so re-imagined. It was based on the original level 1. But I never verified it with any of the players. I suppose I could ping Ernie. But there may be some blurring of memories. The elves, dwarves, etc. were not part of the original level one. They came about in the first re-design. But I thought the redesigned level 1 was bigger.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 13, 2016 13:33:25 GMT -5
IIRC when this first came up a few years ago Allan showed the "Shook" map to Rob and Benoist showed it to Ernie and both of them denied it being anything like the dungeon they remember playing in.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 13, 2016 13:41:29 GMT -5
I wanted to see actual crap from Greyhawk when I went to GenCon in 2002, so I asked Rob Kuntz if he could bring some maps. It wasn't exactly what I had in mind (I think Scott seen them too.).
The Tsojcanth map was not Tsojcanth but a Kuntz era Castle Greyhawk level that Gary thought was clever enough for a tournament and asked Rob if he could copy but rekey it as something else. Then the Wizard of Oz map was supposed to be part of Greyhawk (I just happened to be familiar with Baum's Oz's layout and it was completely a pseudo-Oz ala DUNGEONLAND/Wonderland for the Castle.). All I wanted to see was the front door and Kuntz kept insisting there was no front door. I was joking around that it was an Oliver Stone conspiracy... "It's a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma...." Geez, talk about dated... Anyway, this is before all this Ebay auction shit. I might have inadvertently given him the idea that people would be interested in seeing those as well.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 13, 2016 14:42:52 GMT -5
My impression is that Rob chafes against the open-ended nature of the traditional "big dungeon" and prefers a more contained and controlled environment, which is why his levels (at least those we've seen) all feel like self-contained "thematic capsules" that just happen to coincidentally be set within a bigger dungeon. Rob seems to prefer a very linear approach where the players' options are tightly constrained (you basically have to do exactly what he wants and expects you to or die), which is not really compatible with a big, open-ended dungeon where the players have freedom to go pretty much wherever they want.
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Post by Scott on Apr 13, 2016 15:09:55 GMT -5
For published writing, I absolutely agree with that assessment, but as a campaign DM, Rob was very sandbox from go. Kalibruhn didn't start with the village/big dungeon model. It was more East Mark. You started in the Baronies, and you poked around and found out about the low level dungeons that were close by (a copper mine and an old temple at least), and decided where to go.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 14, 2016 13:29:40 GMT -5
I finally got the photo "first level" to a reasonable level as far as wall depth but it needs all the doors. Some are guesses some might be traps or secret doors.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 14, 2016 13:30:43 GMT -5
I might be done with this one by next week
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Post by grodog on Apr 14, 2016 18:42:25 GMT -5
IIRC when this first came up a few years ago Allan showed the "Shook" map to Rob and Benoist showed it to Ernie and both of them denied it being anything like the dungeon they remember playing in. Rob hadn't recognized that level map because it wasn't the same layout that he most-remember, after he and Ernie resculpted it for their mercenary forces: he didn't recognize, at first, the "virgin" level map, so to speak. I've got to go back through my long notes from phone conversations with Rob to mine all of the other misc. details we've discussed over the years, and this info is definitely in there, one way or the other. Allan.
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Post by GRWelsh on Apr 14, 2016 19:09:39 GMT -5
The only thing that argues in favor of this map being the original and the "con" map being a later revision is that this map is SO simplistic and, frankly, looks kind of like something somebody who was doing this for the first time would draw, while the denser, more complex "con" map looks more like something somebody who has more experience with the game would draw - someone who's learned from play that clusters of nested rooms and lots of doors make for more fun and varied play than long straight-line hallways to nowhere. I think that is a pretty strong argument in favor of the "Shook map" being the original Level 1. The "over the shoulder"/"con" map looks like dungeon geomorphs.
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Post by grodog on Apr 14, 2016 23:05:47 GMT -5
The only thing that argues in favor of this map being the original and the "con" map being a later revision is that this map is SO simplistic and, frankly, looks kind of like something somebody who was doing this for the first time would draw, while the denser, more complex "con" map looks more like something somebody who has more experience with the game would draw - someone who's learned from play that clusters of nested rooms and lots of doors make for more fun and varied play than long straight-line hallways to nowhere. The description from Gary's essays about the Castle are fairly consistent about the level 1 map's blandness: From Founding Greyhawk (Dragon Annual #2, 1997): At the time under construction, the first level only had been drafted. That drawing tool up all my sapre time the following day. It was a level that had lots of corridors and rooms, few squares penciled into indicate solid stone. There were, however, only about 20 encounters on it, for I was truly a novice Dungeon Master and quite unprepared for the avid plundering that was about to begin. [snip] I hastily completed sketch notes on the monsters and treasure to be found there on level one of the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk, while the assembled players waited impatiently at the dining room table. [snip] The group slew a few rats, found stairs leading down, and entered the dungeon with torches flaring. What was that noise? (Early on I used a lot of illusory sounds in the dungeons but found in the long run they helped, not hindered, the PCs, so out they went!). [snip] pit avoided, much exploring and mapping, and---amongst other denizens of the dark underground trashed---a group of kobolds decimated and sent fleeing, and a great treasure chest full of copper pieces hauled out.
[snip] So when I had seen some others out and others off to bed, I went back to the study and went to work on adding a few more encounters to level one and roughed out level two. The characters had come dangerously close to a flight of stairs leading down, and there was, of course, no lower level at the bottom of those stairs.
[snip] An ogre lurking in the shadows of the second level sent the troops hastening back from a descent to lower depths. And now, of course, I can't think of which is the second article that describes the first level creation. Grrr. If only I had a web site with this info on there Of note is Gary's description of "a level that had lots of corridors and rooms, few squares penciled into indicate solid stone" which clearly does NOT describe the level 1 map we have, based on the above source.
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 15, 2016 8:29:12 GMT -5
The Greyhawk Construction company signs were real, well as real as interactive gaming goes, and they would reveal new areas. So all this could be pre and post earth/stone-based monsters and magic. Earthquake and Polymorph Any Object (stone to sand) first appeared in GREYHAWK SUPPLEMENT (1975) and Move Terrain (Move Earth) was around since CHAINMAIL (1971) so the Castle's dungeons (especially the first level) were smashed around since who knows? When CHAINMAIL was on the drawing board and Greyhawk dungeon was in the IFW/C&C/Domesday Era (late 60's/early 70's)
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 15, 2016 8:40:34 GMT -5
Lets not forget that all this dungeon leveling is from real tactics and siegework since ancient times. From CHAINMAIL:
and
These two bits according Gary are the basis that Arneson (and others?) were using for binge CHAINMAILing which led to the D&D idea. So its definitely in the mentality of those first players walking off the street...
Marion: "Where are you going?"
Indy: "Through that wall!"
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 15, 2016 13:42:36 GMT -5
Alright forget the delay. I had some time to blow this out: "T" is for suspected trap areas.
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foster1941
Warlock
Duke of California, Earl of Los Angeles, Knight Bachelor
Posts: 475
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Post by foster1941 on Apr 15, 2016 13:59:24 GMT -5
Very cool. I've always really liked that map, and this version seems much more directly-usable than trying to decipher the frustratingly-blurry photo. From player-maps of games on that map we know of at least a couple stairways to the surface - one in the hallway between your keys 16 and 18 and another one around your key 113. Not corroborated by a player-map, but from the photo it looks to me like there's also a stairway at your key 56 (no idea whether it goes up or down).
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Post by geneweigel on Apr 15, 2016 15:31:12 GMT -5
Okay, I'll add that and I think there are some blank spots to fix.
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